Some things I don't understand .. .

[191185]

OK, I'm still starting out with my 55 Gallon. and still have some questions ..
I understand a protein skimmer takes nitrates out of the water .
do I need a refugium ? does that take nitrates out of the water naturally ? and if so, do I need one if I have a protein skimmer ?
And if you only need one or the other, which one is better ?
What is a "reactor" ? do I need one ?
Also, is a sump mostly for cosmetic purposes ? besides the fact that it adds total water and is more stable ?

 

[siptang]

Protein skimmer is a must in this hobby. If you take a look at what it pulls out, you will understand what I mean.
refugium is good to have but you don't 100% need them.
They both take out bad traces out of your system and is recommended but you do what you can in your budget, space and time.
Reactors are for phosphate and calcium. Mainly for big coral system. I have a fish only with live rock tank and have no need for them. Sump is where you can put refugium, additional water for more stability, more filtration and such.
I hope this helps a bit.

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Also, is a sump mostly for cosmetic purposes ? besides the fact that it adds total water and is more stable ?
Kind of answered your own question there. That is the main purpose to add volume and stablity. Also, for cosmetic purposes, great place to "hide" heater, probes, and the like. Most Fuges are housed in a sump. The sump is where most of your filtration (besides your live rock and the biological filtration) can take place. Some put filter socks in the sump hanging by the drain line, space to house your skimmer, fuge, and return pump.
Quote:
I understand a protein skimmer takes nitrates out of the water .
Yes( Kinda in a round about way), but its the way that they do it that you need to understand. The skimmer will remove uneaten food, fish waste out of the water before it starts to break down. So it does not have a chance to break down to Nitrates. Does that make sense?
I am sure others can explain better but thats the jest off it.
Good luck!!

 

[191185]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatervest13 http:///forum/thread/386661/some-things-i-don-t-understand#post_3397554
Kind of answered your own question there. That is the main purpose to add volume and stablity. Also, for cosmetic purposes, great place to "hide" heater, probes, and the like. Most Fuges are housed in a sump. The sump is where most of your filtration (besides your live rock and the biological filtration) can take place. Some put filter socks in the sump hanging by the drain line, space to house your skimmer, fuge, and return pump.
Yes( Kinda in a round about way), but its the way that they do it that you need to understand. The skimmer will remove uneaten food, fish waste out of the water before it starts to break down. So it does not have a chance to break down to Nitrates. Does that make sense?
I am sure others can explain better but thats the jest off it.
Good luck!!
OK, I did not know that was HOW it was done. how will that effect my clean-up crew ? right now everytime a peice of flake food hits the tank bottom, my shrimp runs over there and eats it all up .. will he have less food ? does my clean-up crew ( blue legged crabs ) eat anything like that ? will they be effected by the skimmer ?

 

[saxman]

Quote:
Yes( Kinda in a round about way), but its the way that they do it that you need to understand. The skimmer will remove uneaten food, fish waste out of the water before it starts to break down. So it does not have a chance to break down to Nitrates.
A skimmer doesn't remove any particulate matter from the water such as uneaten food or fish waste. What it does do is remove dissolved organic compounds (DOC's) such as proteins, purines, etc. before they are converted to nitrates by the tank's biofiltration. Not all of the compounds are affected by the nitrogen cycle, but will cause your water to yellow. The DOC's are removed via foam fractionation, which means that they are attracted to the bubbles in the skimmer body via surface tension, and basically turn into skimmate when the bubbles rise to the top of the skimmer throat and eventually burst in the collection cup, resulting in the nasty brown liquid we know as skimmate.
If you have ever seen yellow-brownish foam accumulate at the water's edge of the ocean, you're seeing the results of natural foam fractionation caused by the wave action.
That's a rather simple explanation, but should help...

 

[191185]

thanks, so the skimmer won't take away any physical food from the clean-up crew, just the bad stuff that is invisible to the naked eye that originally came from food and waste .. is that a somewhat correct way of dumbing it down to my understanding ?

 

[saxman]

Correct.

 

[monsinour]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 191185 http:///forum/thread/386661/some-things-i-don-t-understand#post_3397518
OK, I'm still starting out with my 55 Gallon. and still have some questions ..
I understand a protein skimmer takes nitrates out of the water .
do I need a refugium ? does that take nitrates out of the water naturally ? and if so, do I need one if I have a protein skimmer ?
Saxman has it nailed about the protien skimmer. If you ever want to have a mandarin, you will need someplace for copepods to grow safely. Most of the better protien skimmers sit in the sump where the refugium is anyways. The one thing that will remove nitrates from the water naturally that goes in the fuge is a form of macro algea. I havent had too much luck with cheato, but calipura has worked for me.
And if you only need one or the other, which one is better ?
Do both, it is really worth it. You wont need a protien skimmer right away (during the cycle) so you can startup the tank and save up for the skimmer you really want/need. I know I got lucky with what I found on an auction site. I got a tank that was custom made for someone who never picked it up. It was a sump/fuge combo. I have a spot for my skimmer, spot for my macro algea, and a spot for the return pump. I had a 3 week cycle (I think) and that gave me time to save up for the skimmer.
What is a "reactor" ? do I need one ?
Others have stated the reactor things. If you are doing a FOWLR setup, the only reactor you might need is a carbon reactor. I would use chemipure in it. If you are doing a reef setup, then reactors arent 100% mandatory. If you use the proper salt mix and do water changes on a regular basis, you wont need one. I dont have either a calcium or phose reactor on my setup. I use IO reef crystals and do a 15% WC every other week. All of my corals have remained healthy and I dont really have an algea problem.
Also, is a sump mostly for cosmetic purposes ? besides the fact that it adds total water and is more stable ?
The additional water volume adds so much stability it is really worth it. If you sit back and think about all of the $ you have and will spend on this hobby, isnt a little extra worth the added safety and protection of your investment?
I cant claim to be an expert. Heck, even my nitrates arent under control. I have fiddled and fudged with lots of experiments. I have done 20% WC weekly for a month. I have not ever had nitrates under 40 based on any test once I had my first coral in the tank. I have kept a multitude of corals, but never any SPS in my tank. I think my biggest issue with my nitrates was that I seeded the fuge sand bed and not the DT sand bed. I am thinking I should have done both. But my tank inhabitants havent complained to me yet.
However, I do like your inquizitiveness as this show that you really want to do things right and are looking out for your tank inhabitants before you even have them. I commend you.

 

[191185]

Ok I'm going to get a sump. Or a fuge tank, do you HAVE to drill your tank in order for it to work? Or can you just have one pipe in, one pipe out?

 

[monsinour]

you dont have to drill as companies make overflows that work just fine. I have the CPR90 on my tank and it hasnt failed me yet. Just dont try to clean it with a big baby bottle brush. I snapped the acrylic and i have jimmy rigged it to work again. But yea, drilling the tank would be best.

 

[191185]

ok, So I'll have an additional tank, where I will have a "sump" go to.. and the "sump" is the part that actually pumps the water from one tank to another, is this correct ?
and in this additional tank, there will be a few dividers, and in one section I can grow "fuge" which is a form of algie, which takes out nitrates naturally ? Is this correct ?
and I can also have my heater, and protein skimmer in that tank as well ?
I'm also assuming there's a certain order, and I need three or four sections ? I watched a few youtube videos of it, so I kinda have an idea , I think. .
So a protein skimmer, fuge, heater, filter, will all be in the "sump" tank ? Is this correct ? IF so I'll move on to trying to learn the order and the dividers and everything .. . .

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 191185 http:///forum/thread/386661/some-things-i-don-t-understand#post_3397700
ok, So I'll have an additional tank, where I will have a "sump" go to.. and the "sump" is the part that actually pumps the water from one tank to another, is this correct ?
and in this additional tank, there will be a few dividers, and in one section I can grow "fuge" which is a form of algie, which takes out nitrates naturally ? Is this correct ?
and I can also have my heater, and protein skimmer in that tank as well ?
I'm also assuming there's a certain order, and I need three or four sections ? I watched a few youtube videos of it, so I kinda have an idea , I think. .
So a protein skimmer, fuge, heater, filter, will all be in the "sump" tank ? Is this correct ? IF so I'll move on to trying to learn the order and the dividers and everything .. . .
Almost....both tanks work together, a sump is a holding tank....there is a pump that sends the water back up to the display area, and either a drilled tank with PVC pipe, or an overflow allows the water to flow back to the sump tank.
Yes, one section can indeed be used for a refugium where you add rock, sand and macroalgae, to naturally remove nitrates and keep the tank healthy with tiny critters that would otherwise get eaten up by fish.
Yes your protein skimmer goes in the sump, as well as the heater, an auto top off unit or any other gizmo you may want to add. I have three sections on both of my sump tanks, one area is for the skimmer, the center (on my sump design) is for the return pump and heater and the far right (on my design) is the refugium. You just need to make sure the skimmer chamber is large enough to house the skimmer....It's really easy and folks on this site are great help. I love my sumps, so much better than my canister filters that I ran for so many years. Hang on the back stuff was out of hand...LOL every inch in the back of my tank had something hanging on it. I'm on my laptop so I can't post a picture..it's pretty funny.
You can design your sump in several ways depending on how you want your plumbing to run. For that someone will chime in..2Quills and Acrylic51 are my plumbing and sump gurus.

 

[monsinour]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 191185 http:///forum/thread/386661/some-things-i-don-t-understand#post_3397700
ok, So I'll have an additional tank, where I will have a "sump" go to.. and the "sump" is the part that actually pumps the water from one tank to another, is this correct ?
The sump contains everything. Its one big box that everything goes in. One section of the sump is reserved for the return pump.
and in this additional tank, there will be a few dividers, and in one section I can grow "fuge" which is a form of algie, which takes out nitrates naturally ? Is this correct ?
One section will be called the refugium (fuge for short). In there you will want a deeper sand bed than in the DT. In this secion you will want some rubble rock and a form of macro algea. The macro algea will take the nitrates out of the water. You will need to harvest (remove some of the mecro) this algea from time to time to actually get the nitrates out of the water. Think of the macro algea as a sponge that soaks up the extra nutrients that you dont want in your water. Until you harvest the macro, those nutrients are still in your water. This is also the area where little critters can grow and thrive without any preditors. I have some bristle worms, a few snails, and when I purchase them the copepods are placed in here. These copepods reproduce in the fuge and become fish food as they take the rollercoaster ride through the return pump up to the DT.
and I can also have my heater, and protein skimmer in that tank as well ?
Yup, as long as you have the room. All kinds of extra gear can be placed down below. This allows for more room and a cleaner DT. My heater is too large to go into my sump so it is in the DT. But my carbon, skimmer, and return pump are all in the sump. My sump is small compared to most others though.
I'm also assuming there's a certain order, and I need three or four sections ? I watched a few youtube videos of it, so I kinda have an idea , I think. .
3 sections is all you really need. The prefered order is drain area (from DT) to one side, return section (to DT) in the middle, and fuge section on the other side. Obviously you will have to split your drain so that it feeds the drain section and the fuge section. You would want to place your skimmer in the drain section so that it can skimm the "dirtiest" water possible. You also want the "dirtiest" water headed over to the fuge to feed the macro and other little critters that are going to live there.
My sump is setup differently but it works just fine. I have the drain on one side, the fuge in the middle, and the return at the other side. This is how my sump was designed and since I got such a great deal on it, I wont complain. I will find and include a picture of my sump once I find it.
So a protein skimmer, fuge, heater, filter, will all be in the "sump" tank ? Is this correct ? IF so I'll move on to trying to learn the order and the dividers and everything .. . .
Yup.
For most people, a sump is a DIY thing. Most people wait until petno does their dollar a gallon sale and pick out a tank that will fit under their stand. Then they go to homerdepot or lowest and have some glass dividers made that will fit in their tank. While there, they will pick up a tube or 2 of silicone to seal/glue their dividers into place. I think it takes a day for the sillycone to dry. From here, its time to leak test it and check the flow rate to ensure that everything is working properly. Once that is done, add in your sand, heater, skimmer and connect the return pump to your DT and get it started. I would wait a little bit, but eventually you will want to add the rubble rock, macro, and a decent light (nothing fancy) over the fuge area to allow the macro to grow. Once done, stand back and admire what you have acomplished!
Here is my sump way back when it was new/clean. Water enters on the right where the skimmer is now (not pictured), goes through a 2 wall baffle (I recomend a 3 wall for micro bubble elimination), hits the fuge where there is macro algea and rubble rock with a decent light over it, then through the egg crate (most use filter fiber) over to the return section with a return pump.

 

[saxman]

A sump can be as simple or complex as you want/need it to be, from a simple tupperware tote with no baffles to a full-blown sump/fuge with all the bells and whistles.
IMHO, a drilled tank works best, but as mentioned, you can indeed use a HOB O/F. However, I prefer the U-tube type over the CPR type because the only way the CPR O/F's are reliable (maintain their siphon) is to run them with the "optional" aqualifter pump. If you don't have the tank yet, you can order one already drilled with a built-in O/F, or you can drill the back and run external standpipe(s).
Sumps really are the best way to go...take it from a guy who has 13 setups running. Our sump-based systems are a lot easier to deal with and give you many more options interms of system configuration and customization/upgrading.