soooooo lost

[norcal]

i am so confused and frusterated right now. my tank got ich about a month ago and i did some research and decided to copper treat my tank. i put in exactly how much the bottle said. here is where i am totally confused. i have lost like 4 fish during the treatment. here is a summary of what has happened.
before treatment starts i have in the tank:
1 convict tang
1 royal gramma
1 velvet fairy wrasse
1 maroon clown (for only 2 days)
1 zebra banded goby
then treatment starts, and just before treatment my maroon clown dies like 2 days after being added to the tank. also i add a niger trigger to replace the maroon just before i add the copper.
ok nothing happens for a while it all looks good. but then suddently my niger looks to have more than just ich. his fins start to eat away a little bit and he dies like a week and a half into the treatment.
two days ago (over 2 weeks into the treatment) my lfs replaced my maroon clown for free and i also add a yellow tailed damsel.
here is the really wierd part. the maroon i got to replace the other one that died is now dying and i dont know why. his skin is like sloughing this stringy clear stuff . and the yellow tailed damsel looks fine to me. also my royal gramma is starting to go down the drain and not looking good.
the reason this is all so weird and unbelievable to me is that the original fish are doing great. their ich is mostly gone and they are eating well. but the maroons have both died within a couple days and the niger as well. is there like a wier disease in my tank that i dont know about or what the hell is going on im so frusterated and confused.
fish that are doing well
velvet fairy
convict
yellow tail
bar goby
please help :scared:

 

[beth]

Copper is not a medication that you can use in your display tank. Please take some time to read the FAQ Thread. Specifially, the post on ICH and QT.
How big is your tank and do you have LR, inverts? corals?

 

[ravechild]

Have you been testing copper levels while you were treating?? Excessive copper levels can be toxic.

 

[norcal]

55 gallon and i heard from several people (on a different site)that if i took out my inverts and live rock i could treat in my main tank without problems. As for my levels, all have been very close to if not right at zero the whole time. my copper level is at about .15-.20 i thought the copper might be the problem too. but from what i heard tangs are one ofthe fish that have the toughest time with copper and my little (1 inch) convict tang is doing great. grazing constantly and very healthy. i guess it seems like i have some other bacteria or disease or something going on in the tank but im so confused cuz some fish look great while others are dying.
Beth....i did read up on my options a lot before i did anything. i thought i had come up with the best option. guess i was wrong.
if you have any other questions that might help shed some more light on the situation i will answer you the best i can. thanks for the concern.

 

[beth]

You can not return any inverts to that tank now, unless you break everything down, and get rid of your rocks, sand, whatever you have in there.
Did you read the FAQ Thread I have posted at the top of this forum that explains ich and what needs to be done?
The copper has basically ruined your system anyhow... Have you taken an ammonia reading?

 

[norcal]

like i said i already read tons of stuff (including your FAQ) and understand all of the complications of using copper. I have no intention of putting inverts back into my tank. My ammonia has been consistantly at zero through this process. could it be possible that i have a second disease in the tank??

 

[sweetdawn]

what the heck are you adding fish to your tank when you are treating for disease
use your head

 

[norcal]

thanks sweetdawn. that post really helps me. i know exactly what to do now

 

[scubadoo]

It is quite possible your fish suffered from a secondary infection brought on by the disease.
Also, copper can damage your biological filtration and it will kill any inverts in your substrate and cause a drop in water quality. Additionally, it can cause internal organ damge in the short and long-term. You post your parameters or zero or almost zero..well with nitrite and ammonia almost zero is not good enough...it must be zero.
Also,I assume your testing excluded ph..as this certainly would not be zero. If you are treating with any medication or hypo it is best to monitor ALL parameters.
You should not add anyting while treating for disease, as this adds to the bio-load which is already under attack from the copper. Addtionally, it puts a strain on your entire system and exposes stressed out fish due to acclimating to a new system to disease.
You have too many variables going on for one to state coclsusively what went wrong. it is probably the combination of all of them.
Also, when you removed your live rock you removed a large part of your biological filtration.

 

[norcal]

ok thanks for shedding some light on the subject. i was thinking that maybe the reason they died is they couldnt adjust to the copper in the system. going from no copper to copper may shut down their system or sumthin i dunno. the only reason i added fish was cuz the lfs owed me a maroon clown and they dont get them often and they had one.
i am hoping that is the case here. my plan is to wait until the copper has been in the system for about 5 weeks then i will do a massive water change, followed by another massive water change a few days later.
a question for you. should i add lr back to the tank once i get the copper level to a low level. i fully understand that it will never fully leave my system. but would it be ok to put the lr back in or should i avoid that? thanks for the post scuba. all advice is really appreciated.

 

[scubadoo]

You also need to run a copper removal filter media such as carbon. it needs to be changed frequently. There are other product available as well. This may take some time. Water changes will remove some but not all of the copper. I would not add the live rock back right away...it will be wiped out by copper. You may have to wait an extended period.
I have read success stories of folks adding inverts to the system after an extended period of running removal media. The minimum time frame for doing so is 6 months. After such time and when copper reading are acceptable you can add a couple snals are crabs and see if they survive for an extended period....sorta like sending the canary into the coal mine. I will add that the articles I have read did not mention the period of success..ie. weeks, days, months or years.
Best to wait on the live rock if possible as low levels of copper can still cause damage.

 

[norcal]

ok i will stay away from the live rock for a while. so carbon and water changes over a long period of time. sounds good. i dont really plan on adding any inverts tho, just the live rock but i will wait.scuba do you think my theory on why my fish died is accurate? 3 of my original fish i added are all still doing great. including the tang. seems logical to me. thanks for all of your help

 

[beth]

The reason that live rock is called "live" is because it is teaming with inverts. You, obviously, don't want to spend a lot of money on Live Rock, just to end up with Dead Rock in short order.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by norcal
ok i will stay away from the live rock for a while. so carbon and water changes over a long period of time. sounds good. i dont really plan on adding any inverts tho, just the live rock but i will wait.scuba do you think my theory on why my fish died is accurate? 3 of my original fish i added are all still doing great. including the tang. seems logical to me. thanks for all of your help
Difficult to know as you have/had too many different vaiables. Probably a combination of them all. Fish that have been in a set-up longer have acclimated and sometimes can weather the strom. New additions are under stress...so they are not as strong/prepared to weather the storm

 

[norcal]

scuba- that makes sense. im not adding any fish into that tank for at least a couple months after the ich is totally gone and the tank is back to perfect conditions. thanks for all the help, i feel a lot better and am ready to put this hastle behind me and straighten this thing all out.
beth-if you read the posts we were discussing how long i should wait to put the live rock i already had back into the tank. dont worry, i understand what will happen if i i put any in their with the copper present, that is why i took it out before i added copper. maybe you can answer me this tho. ive had the copper in there for over two weeks now. how long do you suggest i leave it in before i try to start removing as much as possible (Yes, i know i can never get it all out completely).

 

[ridomart]

That copper gets into everything, including your silicon sealent I believe. I was told possiably 6 mo's.
treating with cuporsorb.

 

[norcal]

wow thats a while......but how long until i should start removing the copper?

 

[sgdeb]

Whatever you've read, you DEFINITELY should not be adding NEW fish to an insecure tank! As I'm sure you know, transferring fish at all is extremely stressful --- new fish should be QT'd in a healthy tank --- but to put into a diseased or chemically treated tank is a really big (to be kind) oversite...
Please do not add anything new... No matter WHERE you get them...
As to why your original fish seem to be doing ok...perhaps you had them in a particularly healthy state prior to treatment... There's NO WAY you can assume new fish are in the same state...
Regarding COPPER treatment... I agree with Beth --- more research is required. Copper is a very delicately implemented treatment --- even many experts avoid it till all else fails.... As an amatuer (excuse me if I am being presumptive, but...), leave the chems alone and stick with hyposalinity to treat ich...

 

[ridomart]

I think copper hurts all fish, inside. The directions say after 30 days. I would start sooner, & next time stay away from it & do hypo. I got rid of a 30 gal because the snails kept dieing 6 mos later.

 

[norcal]

thanks for the replies all. dont worry, i learned my lesson about trying to add fish and it wasnt a fun lesson. i wont make that mistake again. as for the copper, yeah i guess i shoulda gone hypo. i just heard so many people say that like 1 or 2 of their fish were the only ones to make it thru hypo so i got scared. i understand that my tank will have copper now. i just will not put inverts into the tank. i think im going to start to do some water changes now to start the process. it has been about 3 weeks i believe and my fish have not shown signs of ich for at least a week. i will start the de-copperizer thing whatever it is called maybe in a week or so. like i said, thank you all soo much for the posts. i was about to give up and i definetly learned my lesson on how to deal with diseases in my tank.
ps i am an amatuer.......lots to learn still!