SOS - Nitrate Levels and Sick Damsel

[baondayko]

I'm new to the boards here, and also marine aquariums, as you will soon be able to tell.
Here is my situation:
After being told by my aquarium supply store that my aquarium was probably cycled (<1 week after setup), I decided to add fish. The nitrate levels have skyrocketed and continue to be high. I lost 1 damsel and am afraid that I will lose another. The damsel, affectionately named "Turkey" by my children, seems slow today and decided not to eat and is breathing rapidly. This behavior has never been seen before. Is there anything I can do to save this little fella? My tank has now been set up a little more than a month. The aquarium store now says that my tank may not have cycled, because I've been cleaning the crushed coral every couple of weeks. I've also attempted to do a partial water change last week, but did so by vacuming the CC. Would this be reducing the beneficial bacteria? If I need to put "Turkey" into an isolation tank, what size should it be?
I wish I had found this message board before I actually added fish. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Brock

 

[stacyt]

I would recommend removing the damsel until the tank has completed the cycle. Is it a possibility to take him back to the LFS?

 

[carsgirlsnfish]

not too sure why they said your tank had probably cycled. to save the fish, you may want to take him back to the fish store. doing a water change before your cycle is over is just adding more time to your cycle. don't do any more water changes. you may also want to think about changing your substrate. many of us start out with CC and later on decide to change to sand. you can use play sand, it's cheap. this will probably also add time to your cycle, but you will be thankful you did later. just take the fish back, there is no reason to cycle the tank with a fish. i would use live rock or a lot of people say to use shrimp from the grocery store
do you know anything about the reptile show in columbus this weekend?

 

[baondayko]

No, its not possible to take him or the others back. Could I do a partial water change, not cleaning the bottom, to remove some of the Nitrates, or will this cause the cycle to happen again?
Brock

 

[ophiura]

First of all, it is not likely, IMO, to be nitrate levels in a new tank...what are you ammonia and nitrite levels, which are far more toxic and likely to be high? How old is this tank in total now? How big is the tank? How much live rock do you have? How much do you feed? Can you set up a smaller tank, without anything but something for circulation and a heater...(see quarantine tanks in the disease and treatment forum here). What sort of filtration do you have? I think you may learn here that crushed coral has some drawbacks, but, in general, it needs to be vacuumed to remove the gunk that is in there. When you say 'cleaned' the crushed coral, what does this mean? Vacuuming, or actually removing and cleaning? The bacteria is on the actual surface, and is not removed a lot during vacuuming, though some probably is. Cleaning, however, could imply rinsing with tap water, which is a very bad thing as the chlorine in tap water will kill bacteria.
But I think your store is giving out some uninformed advice.
I agree, you may need to try and take the damsel back if you can't set up an alternate system. It would be best to try and remove it from the system, IMO, though damsels are tough and might be able to get through things.
I would find a new store. Saltwater tanks are often cycled with damselfish, but they take 6-8 weeks in many cases to cycle and that is normal. If they do not know that, then it is a problem.

 

[stacyt]

As carsgirlsnfish said, doing another water change will prolong the cycle. Best just to let the tank finish before doing anything. You could setup a 10 gallon tank, and put the damsel in there. Just do frequent water changes to prevent it from cycling. Then when your tank is ready you can move the damsel back.

 

[baondayko]

Ophiura,
The nitrite levels have been around 5ppm. Ammonia is zero. Tank is 46 gal bow front. I have no live rock and feed small quantities twice a day. No food makes it past the fish. I currently use a Whisper 60 power filter. I cleaned the CC by vacuuming, not by rinsing.
I will look into the isolation tank. Is ten gallons the minimum? I really feel bad about putting my fish into this situation.
Brock

 

[ophiura]

Just how high are the nitrate levels? How about pH, specific gravity, etc?
I agree with the others, if you can get a small tank like a 10g (again, see disease and treatment forum for set up of a quarantine or isolation tank) and do water changes on that to keep it from cycling at this point (later, cycle it properly, and keep it for use as a Q system or hospital system for all new fish- really, it will save you a lot of trouble).
But you need to allow the 46 to finish cyling, which will often take approximately 6-8 weeks total in a non-LR based system. I would strongly suggest you add LR to your 46g, and also consider researching and potentially changing out the crushed coral before things really get going.
For now, I would cut back on the feeding, perhaps even every other day, only a few flakes. They generally only need a few flakes or pellets per day (their stomach is roughly about the size of their eye). Also keep feeding on the low side when you have it is a Q system.

 

[baondayko]

I will look into getting the quarantine tank. Thanks. I have a quick question, you mentioned that I should change the CC for live sand. What would be the best way of doing this? Wouldn't the tank have to cycle again if I clean out all the CC? Can I add LS and then gradually take away the CC as it comes to the top of the sand?
Thanks
Brock

 

[baondayko]

PH =8.2
Salinity = 1.021
temp =76

 

[stacyt]

The tank will probably recycle if you remove the CC, but it would be a good idea to replace the CC. If you move your damsel for now then it shouldn't really be an issue to go ahead, and let the tank cycle properly.

 

[baondayko]

Stacy,
I would like to switch the coral out and replace with sand, but I have 4 other fish, a brittle starfish, and a crab. Not sure where I would put them.
Thanks
Brock

 

[jim672]

Brock,
If you can fit them, any/all of your 46 gallon tank inhabitants should go into your not-yet-set-up Q tank. The cycle your 46 is going through will likely kill your star and crab.
If possible, the other 4 fish should be returned to the LFS where you bought them. Depending upon what species they are, even after your tank has finished its cycle, putting them in the 46 might be questionable. (For example......dwarf angels, sp. centrophyge, should only be placed in a mature tank with lots of live rock.....8 to 12 months old. No tang should be placed in a 46. There are lots of other size and compatibility restrictions/suggestions.)
Jim

 

[baondayko]

Thanks Jim.

 

[baondayko]

My nitrates have gone down considerably (<30), but my favorite damsel has not eaten in 5-6 days. He is also breathing extremely quickly. He is not very active around feeding time. I am going away Friday evening and won't be back until Sunday. I'm afraid that he may die while I'm away and will fowl up the tank, making matters worse for the surviving fish. Is all hope for this fish gone?? If so....are there any recommendations?
Thanks
Brock

 

[dattong]

like many others said, you really need a hospital tank. Just get one 'cause you'll need it eventually (20g is the best but 10g is ok) You also should have a new big trash can to store water for replacement. water should be premixed 24hrs before used. or you can ask your LFS to keep your fish while your tank in its cycling period. Most quality stores would do that for you. Good luck.

 

[ocellaris_keeper]

First off - don't change the CC for Live Sand....Just put the Live Sand overtop of the CC until you reach about 4" of substrate. this will give you a Deep sand bed and your nitrates will begin to fall. the CC below the sand will create an anerobic (spelling) area where nitrate feeding bacteria will thrive.
Second - don't worry about the damsel - they're cheap and become really obnoxious in the tank anyway. When it dies add the live sand - heck why wait, do it right now and if your damsel survives (I've had some damsels survive a four day power outage where the water temp went down to 62 degrees) you will have one heck of a tough fish.

 

[carsgirlsnfish]

yeah, just because damsels are cheap gives you plenty of reason to try to kill them
and if you don't want an obnoxious fish in your tank then sell it to someone who does, don't kill it

 

[eden]

I have had my tank a short time too. I also cycled with Damsels and they did ok until the end. (Took 8 weeks, by the way as I did water changes and vacummed too!) I would cycle with Damsels again, but did not know any better at the time! Anyway, one of my damsels started getting weak at the end and was being attacked by the others. In one day, the others got about 1/2 of his fins, it was awful. I put together a 3 gallon bucket, a heater and a airstone as an emergency fix, put a big shell to hide in and on the advice of my LFS treated with antibotics for a week. The Damsel went in the shell and did not come out the whole time. I was sure he was a goner. But then I finally got another tank set up - supposed to be my Q tank, and put him in there with the stuff that coats their skin and while he seems a little freaked out and hides a lot more than he used to, his fins are in good shape and he is eating again. Don't know if that helps or not... I am so new, I should not give advise, but my situation seemed very similar... good luck!