Spraybars, surface aggitation and overflows

posiden

posiden

Active Member
I have to agree with Al. As far as I know, if the SA of all the holes is equal to the SA of the feed, the output should be the same. You might run into some resistance issues creating more head on the pump, depending on how long of a run you make. Each 90 and how smooth the holes are on the backside (the ID of the pipe) will matter IMO.
I also wouldn't drill the holes too small to get the length you want, for the flow you have. I would think too small of a hole would not be very good. Easily plugged up. I wouldn't go any smaller then .062"
On the pressure gauge, I would add a gauge siphon. I think it would be a good thing in this case. You don't want the salt water going up into your gauge. That would then compromise the accuracy. (of a cheap gauge) They are very simple to make. Think of a pigs tail.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Here is part of the spread sheet, this part shows how many holes in the spray bar and what diameter.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
I guess the real question is will these holes be able to move alot of water on the surface of the tank to make ripples? The less holes I use the more power out of each hole to cause more surface aggitation to get good ripples to the center of the tank.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Yes, I think 0.125, In my planted tank I went larger, I just want a gentle flow with the live plants.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332533
I guess the real question is will these holes be able to move alot of water on the surface of the tank to make ripples? The less holes I use the more power out of each hole to cause more surface aggitation to get good ripples to the center of the tank.
Right, think about it. By adding more holes, you are spreading out the output over a larger area. Giving you less velocity in any one area.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posiden http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332533
I guess the real question is will these holes be able to move alot of water on the surface of the tank to make ripples? The less holes I use the more power out of each hole to cause more surface aggitation to get good ripples to the center of the tank.
Right, think about it. By adding more holes, you are spreading out the output over a larger area. Giving you less velocity in any one area.
If you go with the diameters and No. of holes in the chart the velocity through each hole will be the same, only the volume of water coming through the hole changes.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posiden http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332533
I guess the real question is will these holes be able to move alot of water on the surface of the tank to make ripples? The less holes I use the more power out of each hole to cause more surface aggitation to get good ripples to the center of the tank.
Right, think about it. By adding more holes, you are spreading out the output over a larger area. Giving you less velocity in any one area.
If you go with the diameters and No. of holes in the chart the velocity through each hole will be the same, only the volume of water coming through the hole changes.
Ok, this is where I show my grade school education. Maybe force is a better word for what I was trying to say?
I'm also a little confused on your SA number in your chart. Why is 1" = to a SA of .00545"
Shouldn't it be .785"
Edit;
Are you saying the pump is 1" and the pipe is tiny, tiny in ID??
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
That is the area of the supply line, I just arbitrarily used 1 inch. The force could also be refered to as the momentum which is mass times velocity, so as the hole gets bigger you have more mass but theoretically same velocity. I would like to set up a test rig for this to see at what diameter and flow you would get maximum penetration/coverage in the tank.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332952
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!

Yes but....you might get a argument against that, based on the spray bars that come with canister filters. No fancy work there.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332952
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!

You are right Shawn, the most efficient shape on a hole would be rounded and tapered a close second. Just like on the inlets to windtunnels they have rounded inlets so there is not as much turbulence at the duct boundries.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332953
That is the area of the supply line, I just arbitrarily used 1 inch. The force could also be refered to as the momentum which is mass times velocity, so as the hole gets bigger you have more mass but theoretically same velocity. I would like to set up a test rig for this to see at what diameter and flow you would get maximum penetration/coverage in the tank.
So "force" is a better word for what I was trying to say?
What about the SA for 1"?
Why do I get .785 and you have .00545??
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posiden http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332954
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332952
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!

Yes but....you might get a argument against that, based on the spray bars that come with canister filters. No fancy work there.
How do you mean, spray bar on canister filter, I am curious? I guess you mean they just drill holes, from the ones I have seen the tubes are pretty thinned wall so tapering would not make much of a difference. When you get into SCh 40 or 80 the wall thickness does have an effect on efficiency or pressure loss through the hole.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332955
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332952
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!

You are right Shawn, the most efficient shape on a hole would be rounded and tapered a close second. Just like on the inlets to windtunnels they have rounded inlets so there is not as much turbulence at the duct boundries.
This is why I have always wondered why they don't do this to a skimmers intake? It seems like it would give a little more performance, no?
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Posiden http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332953
That is the area of the supply line, I just arbitrarily used 1 inch. The force could also be refered to as the momentum which is mass times velocity, so as the hole gets bigger you have more mass but theoretically same velocity. I would like to set up a test rig for this to see at what diameter and flow you would get maximum penetration/coverage in the tank.
So "force" is a better word for what I was trying to say?
What about the SA for 1"?
Why do I get .785 and you have .00545??
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Posiden http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332955
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332952
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!

You are right Shawn, the most efficient shape on a hole would be rounded and tapered a close second. Just like on the inlets to windtunnels they have rounded inlets so there is not as much turbulence at the duct boundries.
This is why I have always wondered why they don't do this to a skimmers intake? It seems like it would give a little more performance, no?
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posiden http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332954
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382045/spraybars-surface-aggitation-and-overflows/20#post_3332952
Al you should also mention it's not just a simple drill a hole in PVC....those holes should be tapered or stepped for efficiency and performance......I might have to dig up a very old book on that subject matter, and really show my age!!!!!!

Yes but....you might get a argument against that, based on the spray bars that come with canister filters. No fancy work there.
How do you mean, spray bar on canister filter, I am curious? I guess you mean they just drill holes, from the ones I have seen the tubes are pretty thinned wall so tapering would not make much of a difference. When you get into SCh 40 or 80 the wall thickness does have an effect on efficiency or pressure loss through the hole.
Yes the thin wall stuff. Sorry. I was spouting off. Most wouldn't think of that IMO. So they might argue about the spray bars that come on a canister filters.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
No problem Posiden, good conversation, I still want to get the spread sheet out, I want the user to be able to input everything they have on the pump supply, pipe sizes, no of elbows, etc to calculate the head loss or pressure loss as I call it, it might help some people out with pump selection. Been really busy - but i will get it done, there are a bunch of inputs that I am trying to make user friendly for the non-engineering types, I don't mean this as an insult to anyone. There are a bunch or very intelligent people on this forum.
 
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