Squid I'm kinda lost here.

[bovetek]

Squid.
I had to search for it, but I was reading the “Plumbing 101” thread to determine how to setup my sump/fuge. I have a AG RR-90gal. I want to put a 40gal breeder under it for a fuge/sump. Since I am in the planning stages and I’m in no hurry to do this, I’m waiting to get all the components I need as I’m on a budget and as cash comes in. Anyway according to the “plumbing 101” thread, I think a 2” backwash will work for me. Leaving me with 39.27 gal to work with. The fuge will be aprox. 27 gal. But I think I can scale that back to 25gal. to account for the baffles(I think anyway, maybe wrong) OK now this is where I got lost. On a 40 breeder 36x18x16, So if I take off the 2” backwash, I need about 23” for the fuge (25 gal), 2 baffles for a total of 3” (3.27gal) and 10” (10.9gal) for the return and inlet/skimmer. My skimmer is a hang-on type so the foot print is only for the Mag3 pump. (4”x5”). Is 10” enough room for the skimmer and return compartments? I really hopr my math is close. I’m going to keep LPS and softies. I’m also thinking of a Mag12 for the return thru an OT spraybar type return which is still up for consideration. I looked over that thread several times, read and reread, but still didn’t see how you calculated the other 2 compartments. I’d like to fuge/return/ intake-skim. Also this tank is predrilled with 1-1” and 1-3/4” holes. Can I use both of these for overflow instead of using one for the return? I have yet to purchase the 40 breeder yet but it will fit nicely in the stand my wife wants me to build. There should be a good 6” behind it and about 12” on one side for the wiring and auto-topoff. I would like a 55 but that maybe out of my budget.
Thank you for your time.

 

[squidd]

Anyway according to the “plumbing 101” thread, I think a 2” backwash will work for me. Leaving me with 39.27 gal to work with.
90 gal AG X 2" for back wash= about 7.5 gallons that works out to about 3" off the top of the 40 breeder...
On a 40 breeder 36x18x16, So if I take off the 2” backwash, I need about 23” for the fuge (25 gal), 2 baffles for a total of 3” (3.27gal) and 10” (10.9gal) for the return and inlet/skimmer. My skimmer is a hang-on type so the foot print is only for the Mag3 pump. (4”x5”). Is 10” enough room for the skimmer and return compartments? I really hopr my math is close.
You can make that 10" or so work, with slight adjustment to your floorplan/layout...especially with HOB skimer, but I suggest a pump in center layout with fuge and skimmer on opposit sides...
Can you do a "paint" drawing to of your proposed layout...?
Also this tank is predrilled with 1-1” and 1-3/4” holes. Can I use both of these for overflow instead of using one for the return?
Yes, with an OTT return...just need to balance/play with the the standpipes a bit to get them to work together..and then one can run to fuge and the other to skimmer...

 

[bovetek]

Squid,
Pardon me while I pull my head out. **POP**
It was late when I wrote that last nite and I was figuring the 2” from the measurements on the 40 breeder.
OK to summarize
90 gal with one overflow 48x18x24=20736/231=879.76
For a 2” backwash 48x18x2=7.5
40 breeder: 36x18x16=10368/231=44.88
44.88-7.5 (

)=37.38 usable gallons
this changes my thinking (now correct me if I’m wrong here)
if I subtract the 3” for backwash off the 40 that leaves me with a 36x18x13=8424/231=36.46
now take that 36.46gal/36”=1.01” for a gallon (rounding to 1 gal per inch) so, for 23 gallon fuge it would be 23”.
I do like your idea of Fuge/return pump and then skimmer.
Ok now just a thought, how about I use the 1” overflow for the sump/fuge and the ¾” for a CL. Wouldn’t that make it easier to adjust rather than having both go down? I also read where if I remove the teeth from the over flow and replace with gutter guard, I would gain more gph. Is this advisable?
JEEZE MY HEAD HURTS!! And I’m probably wrong on my figures again.
As for a drawing… I made one…too large…resize to requirements…cant see a damn thing. It looks really nice in word but only the text shows when I select all or cut and paste.
thanks

 

[bovetek]

ok I think I figured out the attachment thing.
On my last post, I have no idea how the banging head smiley got there--but it seems appropriate

 

[squidd]

Ok now just a thought, how about I use the 1” overflow for the sump/fuge and the ¾” for a CL. Wouldn’t that make it easier to adjust rather than having both go down? I also read where if I remove the teeth from the over flow and replace with gutter guard, I would gain more gph. Is this advisable?
I have done exactly that on another tank, but can be tricky to get "tuned in" for no noise, no turbulance, no bubles... https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=184006
A deciding factor will be "goal flow" for tank, and how you plan on dividing between sump return and closed loop...the 1" overflow will give you 600+/- to/from the sump...the rest will have to come from the closed loop and the 3/4" may not be big enough to support a decent external pump...you'll need to do some research...
I'd "suggest" using both bulkheads from overflow for sum/fuge feed (as above) and getting the tank drilled (in back) for closed loop intake and outputs...
Basic sump/fuge layout looks good...with overflow(s) draining to each side ...fuge and skimmer and flow meeting in the return pump chamber...
"Suggest" making spacing between baffles "wider" if you can (by taking space out of skimmer/overflow drain area)...adding another 1" to each still leaves 5" for skimmer pump... and raising fuge baffle adds to fuge volume, while lowering skimmer baffle to regain "backwash" volume...
And baffles will be needed more on the skimmer to return side rather than fuge side...fuge is slower flow so can be simple "wall" or two baffle system "IF" needed...

 

[bovetek]

ok-you convinced me. So both drains will go to the sump/fuge. The 3/4" to the Fuge and the 1" to the Skimmer side. On the HOB overflow box I have now It has a 1" bulkhead. I used an adapter to so I could use 1-1/4" hose. I have a mag7 for the return and it seems to be a perfect match. Now the AG 90RR is rated at 600. If I understand you right, the 1" will give me 600+-. The 3/4 will probably be about 400 (just a guess) So If I do as before with the larger plubing,say around double the mag9 outlet, use spaflex, That should be about right or do you think I can push it with a mag 12 - 1200gph. Oh yeah on the plumbing I have now, 37 galMT and a 20long sump/fuge (which I just guessed at this stuff) I used 11/4 helix hose and a simple T spraybar with 2 1/2" 90 on the end. No valves. I guess I got lucky.
by the way were my calculation even close?
Ben

 

[squidd]

I think you did real well, reading, comprehending and applying the info from that thread...and came up with a real nice "basic" system with good balance..
Now as all systems are "slightly" different, we just need to "tweak" yours (a little)to maximize effeciency...
The biggie would be as your using a HOB skimmer, we can shrink the chamber a bit and use the room elsewhere (like the fuge and baffles...)

 

[squidd]

The reason your Mag 7 works with the 1" HOB overflow is because after figuring in "head loss" and line restriction, your "probably" only pushing 400-450 or so...
We'll have to do the calcs for height, elbows and line size, but the Mag 12 is looking like a good candidate for the "dual tube" overflow and OTT return..

 

[bovetek]

ok--COOL!!
I've been messing with PAINT. I'll see if I can make a drawing of what I envision of the return spraybar.
Also a drawing of the stand along with measurments between the MT and the Sump/fuge. This may take a bit of time. My job requires me to be on call 24/7. Seems just as I get involved with something I get called out. Hopefully this won't take too long to do the drawings.
thanks again for your time.
Ben

 

[bovetek]

Paint was very frustrating, so I did this PaintShop Pro (still frustrating but not as bad)
I hope CAD design is not a pre requisite for this course.
Anyway, Here are the adjustments I made to the Sump/Fuge as your suggestions.
Also a very crude drawing of the closed loop. For the return pump, the Mag12 has an outlet of 3/4", I was thinking on using 1-1/2" PVC fittings and, If I can find it, 1-1/2" SpaFlex.
I figured about a 5-1/2' head. Using all 1-1/2" fittings
1- union
4- 90 degree elbos
7- Tees
6-45 degree elbos
For the overflow:
2" PVC or SpaFlex for 1" bulkhead
1- 2" ball valve
1- 2" union
1-1/2" PVC or SpaFlex for 3/4" bulkhead
1 - 1-1/2" union
1 - 1-1/2" ball valve
I really don't think I can afford to put in any type of wave maker. I am looking into the
Hydor Flo to put on the ends of the 6 outlets on the closeloop. I sent them an e-mail for more info on their product. Also without doing the math, I don't exactly know if I have too many outlets or what size they need to be at this point.
For the Sump/Fuge itself, I change the spacings a touch and the baffles as you suggested. 2" betwwen the baffles on the skimmer side and just one after the fuge. I also figured the fuge wall to be 12" tall to get the 19.5 gal.

 

[bovetek]

more drawing for you
Here is the stand my wife wants me to build. She saw it on a post either on this forum or on another we frequent. I would like to thank that person that designed it, it's awsome. It's going to be kinda big but I will have plenty of room for plumbing, eletrical, auto top-off and maybe even to upgrade to a 55gal sump/fuge in the future. Also as you mentioned in your post about water noise. It is a concern, but I also raise FW Angelfish and have 13 other aquariums scattered through out the house and a tad more noise will not be noticed. I find it somewhat relaxing. It's when I don't hear any that I get worried.

 

[squidd]

For the return pump, the Mag12 has an outlet of 3/4", I was thinking on using 1-1/2" PVC fittings and, If I can find it, 1-1/2" SpaFlex.
I figured about a 5-1/2' head. Using all 1-1/2" fittings
1- union
4- 90 degree elbos
7- Tees
6-45 degree elbos
Using your figures...and "adjusting"for misc flow factors...should get 930gph from return loop..which will be "just right" with the dual overflow...adding "diverters" or Hydro flos will restrict a bit, so you'll still be good with the Mag 12...
This puts you at around 10X turnover for the tank...are you planning on any additional/supplemental flow...?
For the overflow:
2" PVC or SpaFlex for 1" bulkhead
1- 2" ball valve
1- 2" union
1-1/2" PVC or SpaFlex for 3/4" bulkhead
1 - 1-1/2" union
1 - 1-1/2" ball valve
Might be just a "little" overkill on the drains....

but I'm not going to hold you back... (actually 1 1/2" and 1" would be plenty..)
Cabinet looks like Leonas...other than covering up one end panel from viewing...nice looking piece...

 

[bovetek]

Well actually I forgot to put a line in. Actually it is in 2 pieces. The bottom will be straight across. The side box is structurally independent of the bottom. That way if I get the bug to go with a bigger tank, I can use the full length of bottom cabinet for the tank. Also I can upgrade the sump/fuge without having to build a bigger stand. I do have a method to my madness. The side box is mainly for the controll box that will be inset. Also just in case of growing pains. Just remove it from the cabinet and attach elsewhere. Of course all the
stand plans are on approval from the CEO of the family. Things may change as time goes on. Thats why I'm mainly concentrating on the tank and fuge first. I'll just build around them.
Ok as for the Flo devices, I have not yet decided to go with them. I may just go with straight pipe with a flow spreader. In your opinion will 10x be enough for softies and LPS?.
Thanks again
Ben

 

[bovetek]

I forgot to ask. So as for the overflow drains. The 3/4' line will go straight in the fuge or will there be a T to divert just a portion of the water to the fuge. As for the 1", that will just dump into the skimmer side. What do you suggest for the drain to go into. The bubble box I have now sucks. I just siliconed a piece of glass diagonally in one corner. put the drain in that and let it overflow into the skimmer compartment. My main problem is it bubbles over hard that It's almost a skimmer on its own.

 

[bovetek]

bump

 

[squidd]

In your opinion will 10x be enough for softies and LPS?.
My thoughts on Turnover/Suggested turnover rates...
FOWLR : (Fish Only with Live Rock) 10X to 15X Depending on species, some like Box fish/Cow fish need slower water or "some" protected areas, others like Tangs and most Aggressive do better (filtration wise) with more flow due to high waste load.
Reef, Softies only: 10X to 15X Good rate for filtration, but not too fast as some "branching" softies won't open fully if blown around too much...
Reef, Softie and LPS: 15X to 20X with "protected" areas for branching softies (see above)
Reef, LPS: 20X to 25X Excellent flow for filtration and keeping deitrus suspended and movement of micro flora and Fauna food supply as well as "waste" and slime removal from coral bedding areas...
Reef LPS and SPS: 20X to 30X More flow is beneficial to SPS, but some "protected areas" are needed for "pillowy" inflating LPS as they too do not appreciate being blown around.
Reef, SPS: 25X and up, 30X is good, more is better: Most SPS do well in high flow situations, with a combination of random and linear flow patterns (flow control, wave and surge action, mix it up) Benefit to filtration, deitrus suspension, Oxygenation, waste and aelopathy removal and micro flora and fauna feeding...
This is a "General" recommendation for "Total" turnover which is a combination of sump return and supplemental circulation devices "IN" the tank (power heads/closed loop etc...) and with any species there will be exceptions to the rule (some softies are OK in high flow, some SPS don't like getting blasted)
Much of your success and failure with these projected flow rates will come from Rock layout and flow Output direction...Due to varying Rock scape, tank size/shape, and circulation layout (rock/tank wall deflection, caves, competing/canceling effect of flow movement) You may find you need higher or lower "Pump numbers" to get the desired "flow effect" in your tank, sometimes a rearranging of rock scape or redirecting power heads is all it takes, sometimes you'll need to "UP" the pumping capacity...

 

[squidd]

So as for the overflow drains. The 3/4' line will go straight in the fuge or will there be a T to divert just a portion of the water to the fuge. As for the 1", that will just dump into the skimmer side. What do you suggest for the drain to go into. The bubble box I have now sucks. I just siliconed a piece of glass diagonally in one corner. put the drain in that and let it overflow into the skimmer compartment. My main problem is it bubbles over hard that It's almost a skimmer on its own.
Depends on what you have for room under the tank, but best would be to tie the two together and then "drop" a line to each side the sump/fuge (like an "H") with a valve on each side to control flow..
Overflow drain chamber is subject to "foam fractionization" effect which can be minimized by setting chamber with open bottom slot to drain "down" rather than bubble "over" the top...

 

[bovetek]

so do you mean like this? Again, please excuse my poor drawing skills.

 

[bovetek]

hmmm seems my skills are worse than I thought

 

[squidd]

Yep that's it...Then you can control flow to each side as needed, or even divert all to one side to say work on fuge if needed, without shutting the whole system down...