Starting a 180 FOWLR and need help

[eric1115]

Hi
I am currently cycling a 180 with 30 gallon sump. 112 1W LED, 2 Skimmers, 2 300W heaters, auto feeder.
160lb of sand, 100lb of base rocks, 80lb of live rocks.

I wanted a large fish only tank because I already have a 55 and 75 reef with small to medium fishes.

I have done a lot of reading but there are a lot of confusing and conflicting informations regarding what I can keep, qt, etc..

I have being keeping Saltware fishes and Corals for about 1 1/2 years and had make a lot of mistakes and lost fishes.

Even when I did a lot of researches, I am still not sure if I am doing things correctly. No that I wanted large fishes which I have never kept before, I wanted to make sure I will do it right things and avoid going through the something like before.


Below are the list of fishes I really want and fishes that I would like to add if still ok after the first list. I don't have to have all of them but if the bio-load and compatibility allows.

I will also add the fishes in the below order, please let me know if they work. I will start adding CUC one week after the tank cycled, then wait 3 more weeks before adding the first fish. Then wait a month between adding each fish. I will QT each fish, but have question later on that.


Fish on my most wanted list

Raccoon Butterflyfish
Golden Butterflyfish
Lieutenant Tang
Goldflake Angel
PowderBlue Tang
Eibli Angel
Flame Angel
Majestic Angel

Additional fishes if there is still bioload allowed

Purple Tang
Blonde Naso Tang
Indian Goldring Bristletooth tang

There are other fishes I like but I left them off the list because either they are too big or not compatible. These are the one I like the most and I know some of them might be too big and not compatible, so any suggestion is welcome. I want to have the fish I like and want them to be happy and healthy.

How that the fish list is done, I have question regarding QT and post QT. I am reading a lot of conflicting info on QT and I am afraid I will lost the fishes, I never did QT before and have a good amount of fishes that almost caused me to quit the hobby so I want to make sure I have the correct information to avoid losing any fishes and bring disease into my main tank.

I currently have a 40 breeder ready for QT, with a Canister filter that's been cycled with one of the main tank, also a HOB filter ready for the QT. The sponge is in the HOB on one of the main tank to seed the sponge for QT tank. A heater and a sponge filter for water movement. What else do I need. I also ordered, Prazipro for Fluke and Cupramine for icy and velvet, what else do I need?


So when I get my fish, I will acclimate it to the QT tank and monitor. Some I read so medicate it regardless and some say medicate only if disease is shown. Which is the right way?

So say Angel and Butterflyfish are sensitive to medication and I will be more likely killing the fish. Is this true?

If the fish don't show disease and I don't medicate, how do I know they are disease free? I have read sometimes the parasite can hide in the gill and not shown.

After finishing the QT of the first fish, how do I keep my QT cycle for the next fish? I read that any equipment I used in QT should never be use again in main tank.

After the fish completed QT, what is the best way to introduce into the main tank and avoid the old fish attacking it?

I have read that open aquascape (minimize hiding space so no fish can claim territory) can minimize aggression. Is this true?

Should I put the fish in a acclimation box for few day when I introduce it? Will that stress the fish out and kill it?


I know this is a lot of questions but I really want to avoid losing fishes.


Thank everyone advance for your advices.

 

[geridoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric1115 http:///t/396611/starting-a-180-fowlr-and-need-help#post_3533972
Hi
I am currently cycling a 180 with 30 gallon sump. 112 1W LED, 2 Skimmers, 2 300W heaters, auto feeder.
160lb of sand, 100lb of base rocks, 80lb of live rocks.Forget the auto feeder - they only feed flakes, which are insufficient for marine fish.

I wanted a large fish only tank because I already have a 55 and 75 reef with small to medium fishes.

I have done a lot of reading but there are a lot of confusing and conflicting informations regarding what I can keep, qt, etc..

I have being keeping Saltware fishes and Corals for about 1 1/2 years and had make a lot of mistakes and lost fishes.

Even when I did a lot of researches, I am still not sure if I am doing things correctly. No that I wanted large fishes which I have never kept before, I wanted to make sure I will do it right things and avoid going through the something like before.


Below are the list of fishes I really want and fishes that I would like to add if still ok after the first list. I don't have to have all of them but if the bio-load and compatibility allows.

I will also add the fishes in the below order, please let me know if they work. I will start adding CUC one week after the tank cycled, then wait 3 more weeks before adding the first fish. Then wait a month between adding each fish. I will QT each fish, but have question later on that.


Fish on my most wanted list

Raccoon Butterflyfish
Golden Butterflyfish
Lieutenant Tang This fish is very aggressive towards other tangs, so could be a problem. Of the two you plan, I like the powder blue tang more (beautiful).
Goldflake Angel This Pomocanthid will not get along with the majestic angelfish, especially if added first.
PowderBlue Tang One of the most beautiful, but an "ich magnet". Be sure to quarantine.
Eibli Angel Beautiful, but likely to have a problem with the flame angel you plan.
Flame Angel
Majestic Angel Very shy, but a gorgeous fish

I see you like color. Consider wrasses. They are colorful, bokd and active and generally should get along well with your fish list.

Additional fishes if there is still bioload allowed

Purple Tang Too many tangs. They are magnificent fish, but not very tolerant of conspecifics, or any fish with similar body shape and habitat (herbivorous).
Blonde Naso Tang
Indian Goldring Bristletooth tang

There are other fishes I like but I left them off the list because either they are too big or not compatible. These are the one I like the most and I know some of them might be too big and not compatible, so any suggestion is welcome. I want to have the fish I like and want them to be happy and healthy.

How that the fish list is done, I have question regarding QT and post QT. I am reading a lot of conflicting info on QT and I am afraid I will lost the fishes, I never did QT before and have a good amount of fishes that almost caused me to quit the hobby so I want to make sure I have the correct information to avoid losing any fishes and bring disease into my main tank.

I currently have a 40 breeder ready for QT, with a Canister filter that's been cycled with one of the main tank, also a HOB filter ready for the QT. The sponge is in the HOB on one of the main tank to seed the sponge for QT tank. A heater and a sponge filter for water movement. What else do I need. Have some PVC piping of various diameters, and put in a piece appropriately sized for the fish to be added. This will give the newcomer shelter, which makes it feel more secure. I also ordered, Prazipro for Fluke and Cupramine for icy and velvet, what else do I need? Not all fish do well in copper. Consider hyposalinity instead.


So when I get my fish, I will acclimate it to the QT tank and monitor. Some I read so medicate it regardless and some say medicate only if disease is shown. Which is the right way? Welcome to the hobby. This is a debate that has been going on since Adam set up the first tank, and Eve offered him an apple if only he would treat his tank prophylactically

. Ask ten of us, and you will get 10 different anwers. Personally, I donot treat unless I see disease, although I am thinking about using Prazipro for internal parasites. I quarantine for 3-4 weeks, so if there is an external parasite I will probably see it and then initiate treatment.

So say Angel and Butterflyfish are sensitive to medication and I will be more likely killing the fish. Is this true?

If the fish don't show disease and I don't medicate, how do I know they are disease free? I have read sometimes the parasite can hide in the gill and not shown.

After finishing the QT of the first fish, how do I keep my QT cycle for the next fish? I read that any equipment I used in QT should never be use again in main tank. Right, I never use equipment from my QT in the main display (including nets, etc.). Once I have moved a fish out of quarantine I keep the QT tank cycled by feeding it once weekly with a few flakes. I'm never without a cycled QT tank because I also use it as a hospital tank when needed, and that is unpredictable.

After the fish completed QT, what is the best way to introduce into the main tank and avoid the old fish attacking it? Make the transfer in the evening after the tank has been fed and the lights are low/out. It can also be a good idea to rearrange some of the rockwork to disrupt territories.

I have read that open aquascape (minimize hiding space so no fish can claim territory) can minimize aggression. Is this true? IMHO, that is exactly untrue. When fish have a safe place to retreat to the effects of aggression are minimized, and survival is maximized. A regal angel (on your planned list) will not thrive unless it has ample hiding spaces.

Should I put the fish in a acclimation box for few day when I introduce it? Will that stress the fish out and kill it? Never used one, don't know.


I know this is a lot of questions but I really want to avoid losing fishes. Welcome to the club!


Thank everyone advance for your advices. Just keep asking questions. It is better to make your mistakes here, than in your tank.

 

[eric1115]

GeriDoc
Thank you for your advice. I do have some more questions hoping you can help with.
What can I use in place of a autofeeder? I read Angel fish needs multiple feedings per day.
Any advice on the butterfly fishes?
Lieutenant Tang This fish is very aggressive towards other tangs, so could be a problem. Of the two you plan, I like the powder blue tang more (beautiful). I like the powder blue also and my wife loves this one. Is there another tang that will work better with this tang or they are pretty much the same risks? I have read that Powder Blue might be more aggressive than this tang.
Goldflake Angel This Pomocanthid will not get along with the majestic angelfish, especially if added first. Would be Blueface be better than Majestic?
Eibli Angel Beautiful, but likely to have a problem with the flame angel you plan. Would a Lemonpeel be better in place of either this or Flame Angel? The reason I ask is because I already have a Flame Angel, Lemonpeel, Rusty and Eibli. They are all in separate tanks for months to a year. I wanted to comsolidate tanks so, I was hoping I can move two of them into the 180. My Rusty is really bad and killed multiple fishes already.
Majestic Angel Very shy, but a gorgeous fish. Would introducing him first help?
I see you like color. Consider wrasses. They are colorful, bokd and active and generally should get along well with your fish list. I have 6 line wrasse, Emerald wrasse, Red head Solon Fairy Wrasse. They can be bad, the Red head Solon killed 4 of my Bi-Color Anthias, including the Male. The six line harrased my firefish all the time. I think both me and my wife are done with Wrasse.
I currently have a 40 breeder ready for QT, with a Canister filter that's been cycled with one of the main tank, also a HOB filter ready for the QT. The sponge is in the HOB on one of the main tank to seed the sponge for QT tank. A heater and a sponge filter for water movement. What else do I need. Have some PVC piping of various diameters, and put in a piece appropriately sized for the fish to be added. This will give the newcomer shelter, which makes it feel more secure. I also ordered, Prazipro for Fluke and Cupramine for icy and velvet, what else do I need? Not all fish do well in copper. Consider hyposalinity instead.
The size of PVC pipe for fish to go in or hide behind? I read about Hypo and don't have confidence I can do it right plus I don't have a quto top-off. This is the reason I never QT before but after losting fishes after a disease breakout, I want to QT but still afriad of both Hypo and medication.
After finishing the QT of the first fish, how do I keep my QT cycle for the next fish? I read that any equipment I used in QT should never be use again in main tank. Right, I never use equipment from my QT in the main display (including nets, etc.). Once I have moved a fish out of quarantine I keep the QT tank cycled by feeding it once weekly with a few flakes. I'm never without a cycled QT tank because I also use it as a hospital tank when needed, and that is unpredictable. Great, I can do that, just a few flake per week? Not everyday? Aso, do I need to do WC while there is no fish?
I have read that open aquascape (minimize hiding space so no fish can claim territory) can minimize aggression. Is this true? IMHO, that is exactly untrue. When fish have a safe place to retreat to the effects of aggression are minimized, and survival is maximized. A regal angel (on your planned list) will not thrive unless it has ample hiding spaces. I have notice strange behavior when it comes to this. In my current tanks, I created a lot of overhangs, caves, hooks etc.. But all the fishes likes and fight for the same few one and then there are empty one that no one occupy.
Again thanks for your help.

 

[geridoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric1115 http:///t/396611/starting-a-180-fowlr-and-need-help#post_3534009
GeriDoc
Thank you for your advice. I do have some more questions hoping you can help with.
What can I use in place of a autofeeder? I read Angel fish needs multiple feedings per day. Angels really need 75 or 80 feedings per day. They like to graze, so 3 feedings per day is just an approximation of what they want. In a mature tank with algae growing they will just graze all day and be fine with one feeding. If you feed once in the morning and again in the evening the fish will be fine. You could also put a piece of nori on a clip and let the angel and tang graze.
Any advice on the butterfly fishes? ?I have never had success with butterflies, but the word is that the raccoon butterfly is pretty hardy, although I have never kept one.
Lieutenant Tang This fish is very aggressive towards other tangs, so could be a problem. Of the two you plan, I like the powder blue tang more (beautiful). I like the powder blue also and my wife loves this one. Is there another tang that will work better with this tang or they are pretty much the same risks? I have read that Powder Blue might be more aggressive than this tang. Mixing tangs, even if their coloration differs is always a chancy thing. Given ample hiding places and your moderately large tank two tangs might coexist (or they might not,.. you pays your money, you takes your chances).
Goldflake Angel This Pomocanthid will not get along with the majestic angelfish, especially if added first. Would be Blueface be better than Majestic? Same problem as with the tangs - members of the Pomocanthids tend to fight with each other. Given enough space and rockwork two might make it, or not.
Eibli Angel Beautiful, but likely to have a problem with the flame angel you plan. Would a Lemonpeel be better in place of either this or Flame Angel? The reason I ask is because I already have a Flame Angel, Lemonpeel, Rusty and Eibli. They are all in separate tanks for months to a year. I wanted to comsolidate tanks so, I was hoping I can move two of them into the 180. My Rusty is really bad and killed multiple fishes already.Yah, I see your problem. You can have a large and a dwarf angel in the tank, and if conditions are not crowded you could probably manage two Centropyge such as the flame and the lemonpeel. If the rusty is already a demonstrated aggressor I would leave it out of the mix. Moving the fish into the new tank at the same time will help since nobody will have territory to defend. Just be sure to have some Amquel+ handy unless the sudden rise in bioload overwhelms your bacterial colony.
Majestic Angel Very shy, but a gorgeous fish. Would introducing him first help? Could be, but chancy always.
I see you like color. Consider wrasses. They are colorful, bokd and active and generally should get along well with your fish list. I have 6 line wrasse, Emerald wrasse, Red head Solon Fairy Wrasse. They can be bad, the Red head Solon killed 4 of my Bi-Color Anthias, including the Male. The six line harrased my firefish all the time. I think both me and my wife are done with Wrasse. aterfish.com/smilies/crybaby.gif" />
I currently have a 40 breeder ready for QT, with a Canister filter that's been cycled with one of the main tank, also a HOB filter ready for the QT. The sponge is in the HOB on one of the main tank to seed the sponge for QT tank. A heater and a sponge filter for water movement. What else do I need. Have some PVC piping of various diameters, and put in a piece appropriately sized for the fish to be added. This will give the newcomer shelter, which makes it feel more secure. I also ordered, Prazipro for Fluke and Cupramine for icy and velvet, what else do I need? Not all fish do well in copper. Consider hyposalinity instead.
The size of PVC pipe for fish to go in or hide behind? They should be able to swim into the pipe. I read about Hypo and don't have confidence I can do it right plus I don't have a quto top-off. This is the reason I never QT before but after losting fishes after a disease breakout, I want to QT but still afriad of both Hypo and medication. Then do what I do - QT for several weeks.
After finishing the QT of the first fish, how do I keep my QT cycle for the next fish? I read that any equipment I used in QT should never be use again in main tank. Right, I never use equipment from my QT in the main display (including nets, etc.). Once I have moved a fish out of quarantine I keep the QT tank cycled by feeding it once weekly with a few flakes. I'm never without a cycled QT tank because I also use it as a hospital tank when needed, and that is unpredictable. Great, I can do that, just a few flake per week? Not everyday? Aso, do I need to do WC while there is no fish? I just top off to maintain salinity, and do a water change just before adding a new fish (I frequently use water from the display for that change).
I have read that open aquascape (minimize hiding space so no fish can claim territory) can minimize aggression. Is this true? IMHO, that is exactly untrue. When fish have a safe place to retreat to the effects of aggression are minimized, and survival is maximized. A regal angel (on your planned list) will not thrive unless it has ample hiding spaces. I have notice strange behavior when it comes to this. In my current tanks, I created a lot of overhangs, caves, hooks etc.. But all the fishes likes and fight for the same few one and then there are empty one that no one occupy.
Again thanks for your help.

 

[eric1115]

GeriDoc
Thank you for your advice, I have few more questions and I have also change my stocking. Can you please let me know if the order I should stock them and what size I should purchase them at?

Golden Butterflyfish
Raccoon Butterflyfish
Goldflake Angel
Majestic Angel
Lieutenant Tang
Powder Blue Tang
Flame Angel - I already have this one about 3 inches in a established tank for a year. Do I need to dose it with copper and fluke to make sure it does not carry disease even thought there is no signs of disease?
Maroon Clown fish - I already have it. About an inch. Do I need to dose it with copper and fluke to make sure it does not carry disease even though there is no signs of disease?


About the QT.
- What do I need to do after I finish QT each fish? Do I through away the sponge and start over again or can I keep the sponge cause it's already cycled?
- What is the order of medication? Do I do PraziPro first for two weeks, put in carbon to remove the med (for how many days) then dose copper? Do I use carbon to remove the copper or can I simply add the next fish?
- How much date change do I need to do before the next fish?
- How long should I QT for each fish?
- How long do I dose copper?


Thank you in advance for your help