Still confused

[iluvfish]

Thanks All! But I'm still confused about something. Let's say I convert the UGF to wet/dry. Then in 6 weeks or so, when I want to change to sand-will it be okay to leave the fish in a 5 gal bucket? The gal at the LFS said that if I convert from UGF and CC to this, that I have to let the whole tank cycle again without fish. Is this true? I am so confused!!! Amy
P.S. I do have inverts in the tank as well. Thanks!

 

[ryebread]

Do you have live rock in the tank too?
You should be able to put most of your water into buckets or containers of some type, move out the rock and inhabitants, remove the crushed coral, and then put all of your old goodies back into the tank......including the water. You shouldn't experience many fluctuations in the water parameters that way.....just keep an eye on them.
Good luck.

 

[iluvfish]

Ryebread,
Well Now that's a great idea! Do you agree that I should convert the UGF with a wet/dry first - before I do the CC to sand? And how long do I need to wait. Or should I use the UGF and wet/dry at the same time?

 

[naturelover]

IMO when I moved tank I did what ryebread mentioned and didn't have any problem at all. I do use CC in fuge and I hardly ever add Ca. Do a search on CC and see if you can use it in fuge so you won't waste CC.
once the change is done wait until your water clears.(run as much as possible filtration and turn off your pumps til water clears). Leave the wetdry filter and change it after a week.

 

[iluvfish]

What is fuge?

 

[dreeves]

If I read your couple of posts correctly...you are trying to remove an UGF and switch from CC to sand?
If this is the case...removing the UGF itself will cause a cycle...and I wouldnt be to sure about it being a mini cycle either as this is what flowed your water through the CC which was your actual bio area...
Then when you remove your CC...that would be the actual bio media for your nitrifying bacteria colonies...so that would create a cycle as well.
If you didnt have the UGF to contend with...then I would agree with what has been posted so far...

 

[lesleybird]

Hi, The fish will be ok in a couple of five gallon buckets for part of a day with an airstone in the buckets when you do your change over. You probably do not have the option of re-cycling the tank....where would you put the fish during the cycle? I would do your changes in this order to prevent any major cycle that could harm the fish. First, if you plan to change over to a wet/dry type filter do this first and run it for about 6 weeks to get a large population of nitrifying bacteria growing on the bioballs or what ever biomaterial you are using in it. Do this for the six weeks while leaving the undergravel filter running and the crushed coral in the tank. After this time frame you can drain your tank and then remove the crushed coral. Drain the tank first and save the water. When you remove the crushed coral and the under gravel filter get ready to clean up the mess that will be under the filter plate. Switch out your crushed coral with either live sand or some bags of the live agronite sand that have a liquid in the bag with good nitrifying bacteria in it. i like the live agronite in the 1 to 2mm size as it can still be vacuumed in this size. Make sure that what ever you use it is live with the good bacteria. Also, buy a bottle of cycle bacteria to add to the tank and use as directed plus add a little every day or two for a while. You might also do a thirty percent water change when you take out the water....meaning replace about a third of the water being placed back into the tank with fresh saltwater. Hopefully you already have a lot of large rocks that have bacteria colonies growing on them to move back into the tank. If you don't have enough you may want to go to your LFS over the next few weeks and add some more live rock. Hopefully it is already cured, but it is probably best not to add more than one large rock every two weeks or so in case there is any die back to cause the amonia to spike in your tank.
If you do the change slowly like I suggest above, you will not have much of a cycle if any at all. You may have a mild cycle....probably not enough to harm the fish. For the first few weeks after the change make sure you check the amonia and nitrite daily or at least every other day so that if it does start to go up you can do a partial water change. Also feed lightly for the first few days with types of food that do not pollute the water too much and do not add any new fish to your bioload. The whole idea here is to bring as much of the nitrifying bacteria with you as possible to prevent the cycle as much as possible.
Good luck, Lesley

 

[iluvfish]

Thanks - that does help! One more question. How much live rock should I have in this 55 gal??

 

[dreeves]

Regardless of what precautions you will take...changes as drastic as you are intending will create a cycle of some degree...I would still think it to be a large cycle...
The efforts and ideas mentioned above will minimize some of the effects of a full cycle...but I believe you will still hav a large cycle once you complete what you are intending on doing.
Anytime you disturb the bio-filtration of a system...you will have a cycle...the duration and intensity of the cycle will be determined by the precautions you took, and the amount you disturbed...

 

[dreeves]

Oh and a refuge is a setting of low pressure...low flow and out of the mainstream of the tank...most people use it to house macro algeas or other things for additional filtration as well as natural food growth, etc.
usually th refuge is attached with a supply line from a sump and a return to the sump.
My refuges are used primarily for th macro's, mangroves, and pod production, and just general gee whiz type stuff. A lot of things I will do in my tanks, I will first see the effects in the refuge prior to full placement in the tank. As an example...right now I am messing with creating "agrocrete" for the sole purpose of dimensioned base rock...So I made up a couple of semi large pieces, and placed one each in my two larger refuges. If they produce as intended (able to grow algea, etc), then I will make more and begin using it as a base.
If you have 5 people with 5 refuges...most likely you will have 5 uses...they are a very versatile addition to a system.
As for your live rock...I believe the going rate is about 3/4 to 1 1/4 pound per gallon depending on the rock density...as for my own...what ever I feel looks and performs the best is what I shoot for..personal preference.

 

[iluvfish]

WOW! Well, I don't have a fuge (at least I don't think so) Is this something I need or something that I'm going to have once I set up the wet/dry? I looked up a search on wet/dry and one guy said that if you have enough live rock in your tank then you don't need the bioballs and then the wet/dry will act as a sump. Now I'm even more confused!! Which way do you recommend is best, and if I need a fuge, how should I go about setting it up?
Also dreeves, is there anything else you can suggest to minimize my cycle after the sand is added? IYO do you think I should get rid of my fish before I do this?? I plan on getting more live rock (80-90 lbs total for this 55) during the conversion to the wet/dry, so when I change to the sand it will remain. I'm assuming it would be silly to keep the CC and sand together, right???

 

[dreeves]

If getting rid of your fish is a viable option...yes.
Then before adding any back...get your live rock and everything in which you think may disturb the water chemistry finished before you get anymore.
Many LFS's will give you a credit or even buy the fish from you.
Take your time with all of this...time only helps the tank.
The CC, in my own personal experience...will trap debris and create a nitrate nightmare...I did it in my 90 and it was too hard to keep it vacumed as the tank is in my family room and the filtration is in the basement below..that is where I do everything, water changes etc...and the sand looks so much better then the CC. A word about sand...if you decide on and have available to you, the Southdown...ensure the bags are closed, not broken open or anything like that. I purchased my own sand from purearagonite.com...had to pay shipping but I got sand that wasnt sitting in the outdoor section with fertilizers, chemicals, and careless employees.
A refuge is not required...it is a very valuable addition and serves many purposes...I have two of my refuges setting next to the sumps...they are supplied directly from the return pumps and siphon overflow back into the sump. One is lit with a 75 watt grow light, and the other is lit with a 96watt pc, and two 40 watt tank lights. The 96 watt pc I just moved over it last night and it is a smartlight with one side actinic and the other i think is 10k. One refuge is a 5.5 gallon tank, and the other is a 7 gallon rubbermade clear store flat plastic under the bed storage box...works well, in it I have about 3 inches of sand and caulerpa, mangrove and a ton of pods. The 5.5 has some live rock, mangrove, caulerpa and pods.
The third refuge is just a "toy around" type of thing, above a ten gallon tank...just something i mess with and sometimes use as a QT. I keep a blue devil damsel in there...he has been in there for several months now and doesnt seem to care...his concern is eating...nothing more, nothing less.

 

[broomer5]

iluvfish
How many and what kind of fish to you have in this 55 ?
If you have a good relationship with the LFS, see if they would keep your fish/inverts for you for awhile. Some do .. some don't .. but it's worth asking.
Then you can redo your tank the right way, remove the old UGF, crushed coral and crud underneath.
Clean the tank.
Lay down a deep sandbed.
Add new saltwater
Add live rock
Cycle the tank properly.
No risk of losing fish by your hand.
Then when the tank's done cycling ..... add one fish back at a time while monitoring water conditions.
Next month .. add another fish.
And so on ...
That's what I would try to do in this case.

 

[iluvfish]

Thanks guys! Dreeves, about the live sand - I was thinking about ordering it from this site, but I will check out the other place you suggested. And thanks for the info on refuge.
Currently left in my tank is a puffer, grouper, damsel and snowflake eel. My tank got sick and I had to get anemone's out already because Beth informed me that I cannot use Maracyn2 with them and I don't have a QT. The LFS took my anemones to hold for me. However, I don't know if she'll take the rest. She's the one that suggested the UGF and CC. I think she is getting upset that I am changing everything (making her look like she doesn't know it all). So I'm not sure how to go about asking.
I know I need a QT also. Do you think I could set up a 10 or 20gal with water from my current tank and the live rock and maybe some live sand and transfer what my fish there during the transition of my "new" tank?? Or will I have the same problem with a cycle.

 

[dreeves]

The sand I pointed you to is not live sand..it is non-live. Dry and of various sizes...you would get sand similar to this type and then seed it with actual live sand from this site. I put 200 pounds in my 90, came out to about a 5-6 inch bed, then seeded it with the 25 pound live sand deal from here.
My experience with the sand from here wasn't that great. But I do not hold SWF responsible, and am sure they vend a reliable product. Stay away from the agraalive type or natures ocean type..they are simply bacteria charged sands...they do not have the creepy crawleys...

 

[dreeves]

Oh and the 200 pounds of sand I got was 118.00 shipped to my door.

 

[iluvfish]

Do you think I could set up a 10 or 20gal with water from my current tank and the live rock and maybe some live sand or CC from present tank and transfer my fish there during the transition of my "new" tank?? Or will I have the same problem with a cycle?
I would then later use this 10 or 20 for a QT.

 

[dreeves]

If you let it setup for a while and do its own little cycle it would be fine...but then whatever fish you have could be in it for a few weeks and could stress them out.

 

[lesleybird]

Hi, I still am of the opinion that you can add the wet/dry for six weeks in advance before removing the CC and undergravel filter and then remove it and add the fish back to the tank and they should be fine. When you add the wet/dry you are replacing the biological under gravel filter with the bacteria on the bioballs that you are bringing along with you after you switch out to live sand. The live sand has a lot of biological filtration activity as does the live rock. I don't think it will cycle much at all.
Two weeks ago I found a bicolor blenny that I wanted....I wanted to quarentine him away from the main tank so I set up an old 25 gallon for a quarentine tank. I added about 25lbs. of live agronite sand and a fully curred 18lb. rock from the LFS along with a new Emporer 280 filter which has a biowheel. I added some cylce liquid bacteria in the amount recommended and also add a couple of caps full every other day. I added the blenny the same day I set up the tank. On day six I vacuumed the sand and replaced 5 gallons of water because I like this fish and do not want an amonia spike. I also added 4 micro hermits and a snail on day 5. On day 10 I added a fairy wrasse and did another vacuum and 5 gallon water change. On day 14 I changed the filter media. Today is day 16 and my amonia and nitrites have been checked every day and have yet to go above zero. The nitrates were about 20 last night which is still in the safe range. After I changed out the dirty filter media last night the nitrates this morning are in the 5 to 10 range and the amonia and nitrite are still zero. What I am trying to say is I don't believe that a cycle in inevetable if you bring along enough biological material. This tank I am running was suppose to spike amonia in the first week.....It just ain't happening!!!! I think it is ok because of the biowheel, live sand, live rock and the bacteria culture liquid and frequent cleaning during this early stage. It can be done.
Lesley