Sudden MASSIVE ich outbreak!

[i<3tangs]

Ok so I'm very firmiliar with tangs, and that they are deemed as "ich magnets"..
I had a cleaner shrimp die today while at work...I have a feeling some new hermit crabs ganged up on him...anyways...I come home from work today to find that my Atlatic Blue has ich..Not like minimal how it usually starts like a few spots, but very very potent. My QT tank is currently in use with two tangs undergoing their final 2 treatments of formalin for Black ich (not as big of a deal)..So I decided because he looked very stressed, and I didn't want to leave him covered in ich overnight to give him a formalin bath to get the existing Ich to drop off until I had the opportunity to hypo them in the QT. I gave him the bath, then put him back in the DT for now. It looked like most of it had dropped of but two or three spots (Phew for now). Not but two hours later he's COVERED again, and now my hippo (I knew it would happen) is COVERED! I've never seen ICH break out this fast! Now my hippo looks like he's doing fine (except the ich thing) and my Atlantic is breathing extremely heavily and just staying in place (not swimming, but right-side up still).
I'm worried he wont make it over night.. My tank parameters are fine. 20 nitrates, but thats more than normal for my tank...everything else reads right where it should...
I guess my question is, and I tried to search..has anyone else had and Ich outbreak that occourred that fast? Maybe due to my cleaner dieing? Stress from that? Maybe ich has been present from day one, but it was never on the fish because of him?
Any ideas?

 

[sepulatian]

Do you have lr, inverts, ls? You should realy treat the entire display. If you have these items, can you go to a store and get a large rubbermaid tub to store them in while you hypo the display?

 

[sepulatian]

Ich does not usually attack like that and I realy doubt that any hermit would be able to get a cleaner shrimp. The shrimp are quick and can travel up. That one shrimp would not have been able to keep ich that bad at bay.

 

[lion_crazz]

It could very well be marine velvet that you are experiencing with your fish. They usually appear a lost faster, affect the fish harder, and appear a lot more abundantly.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
It could very well be marine velvet that you are experiencing with your fish. They usually appear a lost faster, affect the fish harder, and appear a lot more abundantly.
That is true, are the spots white and raised or more like a golden dust?

 

[beth]

I don't think velvet. Once ich is in the tank and water, yes, you can get large proliferations rapidly. Time to hypo all your fish, in my opinion.
If you are in doubt about ich, there are picture examples in the Diseased Fish Thread.
Do you have a refractometer to treat the fish with hyposalinity?
Glad to see you join the forums, even under the circumstances.

 

[rafaelosuarez]

I wonder how long before anyone answers.
I would like to know what is the process to get the main tank free of copper.

 

[i<3tangs]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Do you have lr, inverts, ls? You should realy treat the entire display. If you have these items, can you go to a store and get a large rubbermaid tub to store them in while you hypo the display?
Yes yes and yes. I don't see a reason to treat my entire display, as hypo or copper will kill all of my corals/inverts/sandbed/lr. As long as I leave my DT fishless for 6-8weeks, the ich cannot survive without having a fish to host to and feed off of.

 

[i<3tangs]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Ich does not usually attack like that and I realy doubt that any hermit would be able to get a cleaner shrimp. The shrimp are quick and can travel up. That one shrimp would not have been able to keep ich that bad at bay.
A team of hermits vs. one tiny cleaner hiding in and under a piece of LR, I believe it possible. My initial post, as well as current, are nothing but theories as I can't really think of anything else. I think the ich may have been present, in small numbers, but never apparent because of the cleaner, then when he died (as when anything dies) my fish got stressed..I'm sure my hermits dragging the cleaner out of his home and across the tank didn't help much either, which IMO might have caused the large outbreak.

 

[i<3tangs]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
It could very well be marine velvet that you are experiencing with your fish. They usually appear a lost faster, affect the fish harder, and appear a lot more abundantly.
I've never really researched marine velvet so I'm not entirelly sure of the symptoms...although I will say what I see is the epitomy of an ich outbreak. Round raised sparratic white dots/bumps on both, they seem to drop off (when I formalined) then re-attach in higher quantities, and quickly take home to every fish in the tank...The only thing that makes me question ICH, not even really question, just looking to see if this has ever happend before, is how quickly it occoured. Within 12hrs my fish went from fine...to one covered and barely hanging on, and the other with spots still not compromised....YET.

 

[i<3tangs]

Originally Posted by Beth
I don't think velvet. Once ich is in the tank and water, yes, you can get large proliferations rapidly. Time to hypo all your fish, in my opinion.
If you are in doubt about ich, there are picture examples in the Diseased Fish Thread.
Do you have a refractometer to treat the fish with hyposalinity?
Glad to see you join the forums, even under the circumstances.
I'm almost without a doubt it's ich, unless this velvet has the same syptoms of ich.
The hippo was hypoed once before, so it's time for them to both go for round 1 & 2 of hypo. I have everything I need to do so, other than an occupied QT tank.

 

[i<3tangs]

Originally Posted by rafaelosuarez
I wonder how long before anyone answers.
I would like to know what is the process to get the main tank free of copper.
How did the copper get in your display to begin with? What is currently in the tank? I'd assume you want to now stray from a fish-only atmosphere?

 

[saltn00b]

Originally Posted by rafaelosuarez
I wonder how long before anyone answers.
I would like to know what is the process to get the main tank free of copper.
once in the tank, they say copper will always be present to some degree (trace amounts) in that tank, and inverts and corals will always be affected to some degree by this.

 

[rafaelosuarez]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
once in the tank, they say copper will always be present to some degree (trace amounts) in that tank, and inverts and corals will always be affected to some degree by this.
So the best thing to do at the moment is empty the tank and replace all the rocks, sand, etc...? Well It's nice to have a combination of inverts and all the nice little creatures. I guess we all have to go thru the learning experience to really understans the steps to follow and proceedures...

 

[lion_crazz]

Originally Posted by rafaelosuarez
I wonder how long before anyone answers.
I would like to know what is the process to get the main tank free of copper.
I would ask that you begin a new topic for the discussion so i <3 tangs' post does not get taken over.
i <3 tangs, please do some quick research on velvet, check out some pictures, and make sure that it is not this that is on your fish. If it is, this parasite needs to be treated in copper, as hyposalinity will not do anything.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by I<3tangs
I guess my question is, and I tried to search..has anyone else had and Ich outbreak that occourred that fast? Maybe due to my cleaner dieing? Stress from that? Maybe ich has been present from day one, but it was never on the fish because of him?
Any ideas?
Cleaners do a great job in the wild. In aquariums, where the disease is not dilluted by trillions fo gallons of water, they will not stop an outbreak of disease.
Tell us more about your tank. How long has it been up? How big? How much and what type of substrate? How much live rock? How much flow?

 

[i<3tangs]

UPDATE DAY 1 SINCE ICH WAS FOUND.
I got home from work and not ONE single spot on either fish!!! ????
I know how ichs life cycle is, and that they will fall off then reappear...but is it feasable to go from INSANE to NOTHING in a matter of 24hrs? And yes...I inspected the fish very very well....

 

[lion_crazz]

Yes, it is perfectly normal for all of them to drop off. I would still treat them as if they have it, because it is indeed still in the tank.