Sump/refuge. Help?

[openwaters]

I am trying to put my first sump in and am alittle confused on what is the right way to hook every thing up. My sump layout is skimmer, BT, return, refuge. I am using a crp hob overflow with a aqua lifter pump rated at 600gph and a mag 7 return pump. I dont know if I should split the over flow side to the skimmer section and the refuge. or tee off the return back in two the refuge. Also I have been told that flexable vinal tubing is better to use then pvc. I also like to split the return two a spray bar and another outlet, is this possible or will I just be decreasing the flow to much?
Thank for any Help!

 

[handbanana]

Hi
I can help with a tiny bit here. I think if you add a spray bar and another opening, the water will flow through the path of least resistance. If one side is open and another is a spray bar, more than likely nothing would come out of the spray bar end.
Thats just my few pennies.
Also whats a BT?

 

[saxman]

is your fuge a baffled-off section of your sump, or is your fuge a separate entity? if it's a baffled section, is the flow linear (water goes in one direction to a pump bay on one end) or are the sump and fuge sectons on each end and the pump is between them? if it's the latter config. w/a central pump, i'd split the flow from the O/F and have it dump into each side.
as for the return, if you want to use a spray bar and another outlet, add a ball or gate valve on the "open" outlet, which will regulate how much flow goes thru the spray bar.

 

[openwaters]

Ok so I choose to only go with the spray bar, so i am set there. Now my pump Is between the sump and fuge. What are the adavantages spliting the O/F vs. the return? Is it true that flex tubing is better?
Oh and Mr. Banana BT = Bubble Trap

Thanks!

 

[robertmathern]

flex tubing is alot easier to work with. It also helps maximize the amount of flow going back to the tank and down to the sump by not having elbows to fight against. Spray bars are ok but dont get a sand sifting goby mine used to burry the spray bar at the bottom causing a sand storm. In the end I took it out on my new set up it was more of a pain than what it was worth. We use them to keep detrius from settling but if you have proper flow you wont need them. All they are for is masking a low area of flow

 

[openwaters]

my main reason for a spray bar is to make more flow and break the surface more. So maybe go with two out lets and a scud? Ok so I think I have ay Problem I took the sump and over flow box and set it all up on a empty 10 gal. to test the sump I made. With everything runing the over flow burps air out the drain tube and is very loud bthe burput when I restrict the drain tube alittle to raise water in the back of the O/F the burping goes away, but when I turn off power and then restart it the return pump will out pump the O/F (almost like air is traped in the O/F drain tube?
Anyhelp is very thankful!
BTW: I am using a cpr 600gph O/F and a Mag 7 pump with about 4 1/2 ft head.....is the pump to small?

 

[openwaters]

bump

 

[2quills]

I don't think your pump is too small. The Mag 7 puts out 700gph max right...so with 4 1/2ft of head you're probably looking at approximately 450gph or so? That sounds pretty good for an overflow with 600gph of draining potential.
How ever I am a little bit concerned that if you use flex tubing on your return on a 700gph pump, you may be getting alot more than 450ghp. You may be getting like 600gph. And if that's the case than it is to much for your overflow and that may be the reason why your pump is out performing your overflow. You could alleviate some of the flow by puting a T on your return and diverting some of the flow back into your sump and installing a ball valve to controll the flow.
As far as the burps coming from the drain in the overflow, are you using the vent tube that comes with the CPR that sits in the center of the drain?
In referance to your question about whether or not to T your drain line or return line to your fuge. I think most people here would tell you to T your drain line. The reason being is so that you have the dirtiest water supplying your fuge. Your macroalgea will love you for it.
So IMO it may be best for the equipment that you have to T both the drain and the return. Install ball valves on both so that you can tweak the flow on either side to get things leveled out.
Just some thoughts.

 

[openwaters]

So I did Kind of a mock up to test things out.
Got some questions.
1. Why is the water level in the back of the O/F never constent and always belching?
2. How do I fix number ones problem?
3. dose it matter how the tee is positioned?

 

[2quills]

Originally Posted by openwaters
http:///forum/post/3273488
So I did Kind of a mock up to test things out.
Got some questions.
1. Why is the water level in the back of the O/F never constent and always belching?
2. How do I fix number ones problem?
3. dose it matter how the tee is positioned?

1. Are you using the vent tube on the drain that comes with your CPR overflow? Did you prime it as they recommend? Did you use a diaphram water pump to suck out all the air from the syphon? As your tank and your sumps water levels adjust you may need to add more water.
2. See 1.
3. Check out this rough design sketch. I am actually going to build a sump similar in design as yours. Keep in mind this is just a rough sketch, I will be using pvc as apposed to flex tubing but it's all a matter of personal preference. Flex tube will give you less flow restriction if that's what you are going for.
Take notice of where the valves are located in reference to the "T"s. I've labeled the valves A,B,C and D. For instance, if you want more flow going to your fuge you simply close A a little bit and open up B more. Visa versa if you want less flow going to your fuge.
Now if you are getting too much flow from your return pump you can simply close C a little bit and open up D a little more and that will recirculate some of your return water back through your sump...thus slowing the flow down for the amount of water returning to your tank.

 

[openwaters]

Yes I am using the vent tube, but I have tried every position and not one seems to help. I am using the auqa lifter pump.
The plumbing is the same as your lay out but the I dont have the tee on the return.
but I tryed too make a durso stand pipe for it but I dont if I made it right, I made it out of 1" pvc when the bulk head is also 1", now I have read that you are supposted to make it out of 1 1/4" pvc for a one inch bluk head?
I still cant seem to get the over flow working right. It seems fine for a few seconds the the drain tube belch air out then drains the back of the box and then starts all over again?
I have know idea anymore

 

[acrylic51]

Originally Posted by robertmathern
http:///forum/post/3273056
flex tubing is alot easier to work with. It also helps maximize the amount of flow going back to the tank and down to the sump by not having elbows to fight against. Spray bars are ok but dont get a sand sifting goby mine used to burry the spray bar at the bottom causing a sand storm. In the end I took it out on my new set up it was more of a pain than what it was worth. We use them to keep detrius from settling but if you have proper flow you wont need them. All they are for is masking a low area of flow
Agree......Spa Flex definitely the way to go for several reasons IMO.....as far as spray bars????

I think you'll find as stated they become a PITA after a bit. They will also over time have reduced flow due to calcium and will need to be cleaned periodically, and a properly designed spray bar has a little science to it rather than just drilling holes in the PVC.

 

[acrylic51]

Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3273515
1. Are you using the vent tube on the drain that comes with your CPR overflow? Did you prime it as they recommend? Did you use a diaphram water pump to suck out all the air from the syphon? As your tank and your sumps water levels adjust you may need to add more water.
2. See 1.
3. Check out this rough design sketch. I am actually going to build a sump similar in design as yours. Keep in mind this is just a rough sketch, I will be using pvc as apposed to flex tubing but it's all a matter of personal preference. Flex tube will give you less flow restriction if that's what you are going for.
Take notice of where the valves are located in reference to the "T"s. I've labeled the valves A,B,C and D. For instance, if you want more flow going to your fuge you simply close A a little bit and open up B more. Visa versa if you want less flow going to your fuge.
Now if you are getting too much flow from your return pump you can simply close C a little bit and open up D a little more and that will recirculate some of your return water back through your sump...thus slowing the flow down for the amount of water returning to your tank.

Valve D and piping isn't needed and a waste.....the water is already skimmed and probably won't be processed anyways....why not just return the water back to the tank? What type skimmer are you planning on using?
2Quills, with Spa Flex tubing you would have less friction loss than using PVC and think the flow rate would be higher than you suggested.....

 

[openwaters]

I am going to be using a aqua c hang on for now and just hang it off the sump. I do also plan to use the flex hose for the most part and use pvc for things like valves and to hook up to the return pump. I am also sitll battling with this dame overflow box any help there would be great, thanks!

 

[2quills]

Originally Posted by acrylic51
http:///forum/post/3274430
Valve D and piping isn't needed and a waste.....the water is already skimmed and probably won't be processed anyways....why not just return the water back to the tank? What type skimmer are you planning on using?
2Quills, with Spa Flex tubing you would have less friction loss than using PVC and think the flow rate would be higher than you suggested.....
True, valve D and the piping isn't a necessity. It's just a way to relieve some of the flow going into the tank if your are getting too much flow without having to "throttlle" it down, so to speak. I know you've said before that throttling down the flow would'nt necissarily be hard on a pump and it may even use less wattage because of this, I've just heard different things from different folks. To me it's just cheap insurance. But I really couldn't say if it does or doesn't so I incorporated those valves in this design way back when. I still don't have a deffinate 100% plan of what my plumbing is going to be when I do hook up my sump. I've changed designs probably about 20 times already while researching ideas for my sump.
PVC vs Spa Flex, to me it's all relative. No doubt you'd get less flow restriction using Flex. There are also better ways to plumb a systems with pvc than using a bunch of 90's IMO to help eleviate some of the restriction as well. It's all a matter of personal taste, functionality and what is easiest for the user I suppose. I'm just trying to help bassed on some of the things that I've read and heard.

 

[2quills]

Originally Posted by openwaters
http:///forum/post/3274445
I am going to be using a aqua c hang on for now and just hang it off the sump. I do also plan to use the flex hose for the most part and use pvc for things like valves and to hook up to the return pump. I am also sitll battling with this dame overflow box any help there would be great, thanks!
By chance are you using the prefilter sponge for the drain in the box?

 

[openwaters]

Yea I am but i can never get the water level to stay above the fillter. Maybe the return pump is not strong enough? Maybe its just time to up grade to a drilled tank...lol!

 

[2quills]

Well u said u were using the Mag 7, right?
Are you running the aqua lifter pump still? I think you have to leave it on and keep it running don't you?

 

[openwaters]

Yes I am useing the mag 7 pump with about 4 1/2 - 5' of head. I am leaving the aqua lifter pump runing but it dose not have to say runnig. The overflow will hold and keep a sipon with out it, its more of just a insurance that when power goes out the sipon will restart even if the sipon some how got broken!

 

[2quills]

When all else fails...call the manufacturer.
I'm seriously considering drilling my tank now too. I'm moving next month so I'll have a break it all down anyways.