Sump tank without an overflow? (IMAGE)

[kellenr]

I don't now and never had a sump on my tanks. I was thinking of building one for my 29gal. The stand, canopy and placement of the tank make it hard to even have a sump but I was thinking about trying. The only thing is it would be extremely difficult to incorporate a HOB overflow onto the tank. My tank is tempered glass so drilling is out of the question for me. Has anyone had a sump that didn't have an overflow on the main tank?
I'm going to hardline some pvc over the top of the tank down to the sump. I'm thinking that if I setup the intake and return lines in a specific way I can avoid a possible flood from either the sump or display tank.
I attached a diagram I drew up below so you can see what I'm thinking:
-The RED pipe is the INTAKE from the display into the sump.
-The GREEN pipe is the RETURN from sump into display tank.
-Both pipes will be equipped with a ball valve to balance and regulate pressure/flow and also to shutoff the siphon for maintenance or emergencies.
-"A" & "B" the angle pipes are only going to be about 2.5"inches under the water level, this way in case there is a clog in the RETURN (GREEN) pipe, the main tank wont be able to flood the sump, it'll lose siphon as soon as the water gets down to that point. Both pipes will stop at the same depth in case of a power outage, both will lose siphon once the water line reaches that level.
- The Sump will have an overflow built into it next to the Refugium that has its own section for the return pump "C". This way In case the INTAKE (RED) pipe gets clogged the return pump will only be able to pump whatever water is remaining in that chamber, maybe 1-2 gallons, not enough to flood the main tank.
-The grey dotted line near the surface is the lowest possible water level before siphon will break.
-The lines drawn by "C" are 'dividers' that make up the in-tank overflow.
Whether there's a power outage, the return pump fails, the intake siphon breaks or either pipe gets clogged; there's no way the sump can be completely pumped up to the main tank and there's no way the main tank can drain down to the sump. The sump will only be filled about 1/2 to 5/8 of the way to allow for 'flood room' of the draining main tank. In case something goes haywire and the main tank drains down, there will be 4-5gallons of room in the sump, it'll be plenty of space before the water line in the main tank lowers and breaks siphon once it reaches the bottom of the tubes "A" & "B".
So does this sound like it will work? I think I've covered all the bases. Anyone have any opinions on it?

 

[mr_x]

in a power outtage, the red "intake line" will suck air eventually, and then never re-start when the pump turns back on.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2681407
in a power outtage, the red "intake line" will suck air eventually, and then never re-start when the pump turns back on.
Yeah I figured that but I can deal with having to manually restart it, just say that ever happened. My MAIN concern is avoiding a flood at all costs.
If, or when, that happened it would suck air then stop, whatever water is remaining in the 'pump section' would get pumped into the DT then just start blowing bubbles (and probably burn the pump out and stop). But I can deal with either of those, just buy a new pump. What I can't deal with is a house full of 30+ gallons of saltwater!
I live in southern California, I can only remember maybe 2-3 times my house hasn't had power for a few minutes in the last 5yrs or so.

 

[aquaguy24]

an hob overflow is so easy to install in ur set up..and u have surface skimming to get rid of some of the oil and debri from the surface water....just order one from a website...something like cpr or pro clear..and plumb it to ur sump with hard pvc or like me i use flex hose which makes it even easier...i live in southern cali also and in my 27 years of living here i never had a power outage that i can remember....

 

[prime311]

I agree with aquaguy. An overflow is cheap, easy, and has far too many advantages not to do one. I have an eshopps overflow that only goes back from my tank about 2". A return pump blowing that many bubbles into your dt could be a disaster.

 

[mkzimms]

if your main concern is not to have a flood, relying on any type of siphon is not the way to go.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by mkzimms
http:///forum/post/2681542
if your main concern is not to have a flood, relying on any type of siphon is not the way to go.

You must of not read my initial post throughly. I'm not relying on a siphon. If the siphon were ever to 'break' neither tank can ever flood with the setup I have planned. Maybe you should read it again.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by aquaguy24
http:///forum/post/2681505
an hob overflow is so easy to install in ur set up..and u have surface skimming to get rid of some of the oil and debri from the surface water....just order one from a website...something like cpr or pro clear..and plumb it to ur sump with hard pvc or like me i use flex hose which makes it even easier...i live in southern cali also and in my 27 years of living here i never had a power outage that i can remember....
Yeah my only problem though is my tank is all the way up against the wall in the back. Plus it's in my living room, so an overflow hanging off the side with tubes running around my stand will look pretty ghetto. I also just built a custom canopy that doesn't accommodate a HOB anything. I'd have to hack it up even if it were away from the wall. Most overflows (like the CPR etc.) need at least 5 inches of clearance in the back and a 6.5in. wide x 2in. tall cutout in the canopy. I already have a surface skimmer in there as well. Thats the whole reason I devised this system.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2681536
I agree with aquaguy. An overflow is cheap, easy, and has far too many advantages not to do one. I have an eshopps overflow that only goes back from my tank about 2". A return pump blowing that many bubbles into your dt could be a disaster.
I'm looking into the overflow boxes and checking out the dimensions & specs. Looks like the Eshopps PF-300 has a pretty low-profile. I see it has a siphon "U-tube" though, wouldn't that break suction if the water level got too low anyway? Will the siphon restart automatically once the water level goes up? The CPR is much bulkier but it draws water a different way, through the HOB flange. Are they both just as effective? I'm thinking about buying that Eshopps right, its the lowest profile one I've seen.
What type of pump should I get for this? Something pretty small obviously.

 

[mr_x]

i'd drill the tank. it sounds like a major undertaking, and it probably will be with a tank full of life, but it's the only "right" way i'm afraid.

 

[reefforbrains]

MrX said it best.
Plenty of half donkey ways of attacking it but lets stay realistic.
Its a 29g, not a 200.
Pull everything out. Drill it, and be done with it.

 

[interex216]

Originally Posted by ReefForBrains
http:///forum/post/2682991
MrX said it best.
Plenty of half donkey ways of attacking it but lets stay realistic.
Its a 29g, not a 200.
Pull everything out. Drill it, and be done with it.
Agreed in the long run its half the pain and through a check valve in the line (the ones you can clean) to eliminate a flood

 

[prime311]

The Utube method is much better then the CPR box. Its very unlikely to lose siphon as long as your return is pushing water through fast enough. My Eshopps has never lost siphon and I turn my power off to my tank every day when I feed. OP already said the tank is tempered so drilling is not an option.
For return you want a Mag 5 with a check valve and a ball valve on the line. The check valve prevents reverse siphoning in power outages and the ball valve can be used to restrict the water flow as need be.

 

[yukon]

Heres a thread on how to build a DIY PVC overflow. This could be a option for you.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/297623/pics-diy-pvc-overflow

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by ReefForBrains
http:///forum/post/2682991
MrX said it best.
Plenty of half donkey ways of attacking it but lets stay realistic.
Its a 29g, not a 200.
Pull everything out. Drill it, and be done with it.
I can't drill it. Done. Placing an overflow box on the back is gonna be WAY easier than pulling everything out and trying to drill a tempered glass tank. Risk is way too high. Pulling everything out is a joke. My tank is full of corals etc.. No way.
Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2683179
The Utube method is much better then the CPR box. Its very unlikely to lose siphon as long as your return is pushing water through fast enough. My Eshopps has never lost siphon and I turn my power off to my tank every day when I feed. OP already said the tank is tempered so drilling is not an option.
For return you want a Mag 5 with a check valve and a ball valve on the line. The check valve prevents reverse siphoning in power outages and the ball valve can be used to restrict the water flow as need be.
I was thinking Mag5, something with like 300gph is what I was planning. That will probably closely match the drainage.

 

[kurtymac]

yea overflow is worthed you can find one cheap on the internet used. The one day your not home, just for one day, thats when the power will go out and nobody will be there to restart it lol, it never fails hahah

 

[mr_x]

the whole tank is tempered? i've never heard of that. i'm talking about drilling a hole about 3"-4" down from the top, in the back pane.
btw, i think that cpr overflows with aqualifter pumps are much more reliable than a
"j" tube style overflow. the aqualifter restarts the siphon when the power goes back on. i've witnessed J tube overflows failing to restart more than once.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2683501
the whole tank is tempered? i've never heard of that. i'm talking about drilling a hole about 3"-4" down from the top, in the back pane.
btw, i think that cpr overflows with aqualifter pumps are much more reliable than a
"j" tube style overflow. the aqualifter restarts the siphon when the power goes back on. i've witnessed J tube overflows failing to restart more than once.
I know some of the panes are, I know the bottom is and I think either the back or front. Either way I have so much stuff in there, I'd rather not have a sump than go through the headache of pulling everything out including most of the water and trying to drill a 'live' tank.
This is the overflow box I'm thinking about. Cutting my canopy seems a lot easier.

 

[prime311]

Mr.X you are the only person I've ever seen recommend the CPR over a Utube style in over 50 threads about overflows I've posted in. I mean no disrespect, but in this case you're in an overwhelming minority. The air pumps the CPR's use are much more prone to failure then a utube and don't always restart siphon the way they should. The only reason that a utube fails(assuming a decent utube style overflow like Lifereef or Eshopps) is as I said before, lack of pressure from the return.
Kellen - the Mag 5 with 4.5' head loss put out about 275GPH.

 

[mr_x]

i've had both styles of overflows, and the results i got were posted above. i've only had 3 cpr overflows and 2 "J" tube styles. the neighborhood i lived in before i moved here would lose power just about every time it rained.