surge device V. 1.0

[reefkprz]

ok I decided for giggles to build myself a surge device.
I got debating the best way to do it, brain stormed, brain cramped, drank a beer. googled, then went to home depot.
I figured a tiolet flushes about how I want my device to. just how to make the flush self activating. so i took a cheap $5 toilet flapper and bought a $4 toilet float ball, and instead of using the handle I attached the toilet ball to the flap valve. insert device into 5g bucket add powerhead for fill. and viola surge device.
there are still some mods needed to be made to make this work 100%
first problem. the flapper drain is 2inch which I reduced to inch and a half.
in my sink test I found there wasn sufficient back pressure to allow the flap to completely open. it tended to surge once then stick draining as fast as it filled. I put a reducer on it to once inch pipe and it surges fine. (ran it for 20 minutes no hang ups. I also tried putting a 45degree elbow at the 1 1/2 which also seemed to work fine.
once I figure out how the heck I am going to get it mounted next to my tank I will make some more final revisions as to how I plumb the final drain. probably with a 45 degree elbow and another 45 degree to direct it more downwards.
but pictures are worth a thousand words. here are some pictures of the EC surge version 1.0 (I will admit its a total knock off of the borneman surge device but I'm not shy if it works and is cheap I'll try it)

 

[reefkprz]

and here it is in action.

 

[reefkprz]

thats about a 3 1/2 gallon surge, every 3 to 4 minutes.
remember this is only version 1.0 not ready for the tank yet.
any questions? thoughts? observations? heckles?

 

[reefkprz]

so playing around to see how it wouyld work out on a tank I slapped this bugger on top of my 60g...... I added a straight piece of 1 1/2 pipe about 16inches long to see if that would work out for back pressure to keep the flapper working right and not getting stuck....
the first fill I ran my sump return pump dry apparantly I only have about 3 gallons of leeway before my sump goes dry..... added another 2 gallons of salt water to my sump. and tried again.
HUNGAMUNGA!!! talk about a surge of water. it kicked up som much crap in one shot it also overflowed the top of my tank since the OFB couldnt keep up with all the water influx.

Well I got surge thats for sure.

 

[reefkprz]

after cleaning up the mess, I decided to try it w/out the sump circulating and just pulled from the tank to fill and surge back in. I cut the 16 inch straight pipe down to about 4 inches and put a Wye on the end of it.
not so sure I like this design. dumps a buttload of bubbles. also I only get about four surges then it starts doing half surges, then sticks. back to the drawing board. maybe more back pressure..... hmm suggestions?

 

[scsinet]

Subscribed.
Wish I had more to comment on. This is a neat idea. You know what you're doing, so I doubt I can come up with anything you don't already know.

 

[reefkprz]

ok put another 16 inch pipe back on with the wye at the end of it almost no bubbles make it all the way down. better. not perfect. but definatly better.
also did the flood test. say the flap got stuck closed.. guess what the toilet flappers built in overplow protection isnt enough. going to have to add another overflow pipe. no biggie. I think a 1 inch pipe cut to the same heigth as the flapper overflow should suffice. unfortunatly I dont have the fittings to do that tonight.. maybe in the morning. also going to pick up a couple reducers and see if some magic combination of reducers and elbows will stop the air from making it into the tank.
thats probably all for tonight. tommorrows another day.

 

[reefkprz]

just got thinking again. when i set this up on my tank its going to be working with my sump. a few things I will have to do is move my ATO down to the low point in the surge. aka just before it surges the sump is going to be lowest if I dont it will just keep topping off..... hmm. logistics.
another thought. considering a turf screen. I will be able to place a turf screen in my sump midway through the surge levels and have it submerge and emerge with the surge cycle. 2 birds one stone. interesting thought.

 

[aquaknight]

If you are only getting little to no bubbles, you're ahead of the game. All the vids on youtube have serious bubbles.
Most of the problems with the toilet flapper setups, it seems comes from the "harshness" of the flaps shutting closed/opening suddenly. I wonder if you modified the flap so it's leaking just a tad, would that eliminate the start/stop issues?

 

[aquaknight]

I just tested it out on my toilet. I just stuck a q-tip under the flapper. Seemed to work better. It was hell on the filler valve, squeeling away trying to decide to stay on or turn off, but it definitely seemed to start/stop easier.

 

[reefkprz]

I'll give that a try this afternoon and see if that helps. I forgot I have to work this morning, so i cant do anything untill this afternoon.
I still have to figure out something about the bubbles. as cool as a surge device will be to have on my tank I am not risking my sponges to bubble death

 

[reefkprz]

so i went to home depot and picked up some reducers and some elbows and some 1 inch pipe.
v1.2
tried a quick mod, and all it does is shoot the bubbles further..... creating more of a laminar flow than than just a surge of water. if I want laminar flow I'll just put the pump in the tank. I'm thinking bubbles are a fact of life with this set up. I would rather have them rise quickly than shooting all over the tank. reducing it also makes the surge period last longer.
I'm thinking 1 1/2 pipe is the way to go I want a fast hard surge. I dont want no sissy little stream.
hmmm...

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3146427
I just tested it out on my toilet. I just stuck a q-tip under the flapper. Seemed to work better. It was hell on the filler valve, squeeling away trying to decide to stay on or turn off, but it definitely seemed to start/stop easier.
v1.3
I tried this while it doesnt hang up as often that way, but it still does. it also induces a steady stream of bubbles in the tank when partially opened with a piece of plastic
I switched to a larger pump for a faster fill rate and it seemed to eliminate the hangups. I did some googleing and apparantly every one else using this device uses an s bend in the pipe to take care of the hangups, apparantly its the back pressure thats needed to make the flapper work correctly
that problem is solved.

 

[reefkprz]

V1.4
after a couple hours of changing pipes fitting reducing, reducing and re enlarging, I have surmised that there is no way to totally eliminate bubbles from this design, or rather if there is a way I cant figure it out. the best I have been able to manage is a surge of large bubbles with few micro bubbles that rise quickly. at this point I am going to do some googleing and see if there are any design mods that others have used with more success in eliminating bubbles. but I feel that this type of surge device due to needing air under the flapper (essential to its function) is always going to cause bubbles....

 

[reefkprz]

I think i am going to go pick up a few more 90 degree elbows and try the S turn and simply deal with bubbles, I shall negate the threat to my sponges by introducing the surge at the top of the water column so the bubble dont go deep enough to get near my sponges. I only need a couple 90's to do this.
on the bright side I have a LOT of leftover parts for building sdomething else. LOL. I still need to put a second overflow prevention pipe into the bucket. or go with a smaller powerhead. so teh built in pipe can drain as fast as it fills should the worst happen.

 

[reefkprz]

V 1.5
ok got some 90's. after testing it out I realize its really important to make sure your plumbing is level. if the pipe is a little out of kilter it tends to hang up. but if its level it works smoothly. the next step is to add another overflow pipe, because I think I am going to have my return pump fill the surge device.
I also need to adjust my overflow box down so my tank can handle the influx of water while the overflow catches up.
I'm also thinking if I set the surge effluent pipe so its only 3/4 of the way submerged it may prevent some of the bubbles..... not sure
I think this will work for now. I may change out some of the lengths to see if that affects the performance any e.g. make the s taller so it comes farther up the bucket, as well as lower it so it doesnt come up as high and see what that does. but I am out of time for today. I need to shower for work.
(note in this picture nothing is glued its just pressed together and straightened out so you can see the layout, by swiveling the direction of the 90's I can make it more compact)

 

[snakeblitz33]

Subscribed. lol! This is great. I haven't seen a surge device in progress on this website in a really long time.

 

[bmkj02]

I hope I dont sound stupid and I probably am. I have been doing saltwater for about 10 years and never heard of this. What is the purpose of this?

 

[posiden]

Have you ever seen snailmans design? His uses a stopper and a float. Similar to this but the air bubble is not required. It stays in a full siphon so no air bubbles are interduced. The only draw back would be the mechanism getting hung up due to growth.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by bmkj02
http:///forum/post/3147419
I hope I dont sound stupid and I probably am. I have been doing saltwater for about 10 years and never heard of this. What is the purpose of this?

to create surge flow instead of laminar flow. AKA more realistic wavelike flow. better for corals.