Tang with Ick-Best Treatment??

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by jcrim

I've SEEN the product "Chem Marin Stop Parasite" work on 2 different systems. None of your listed factors changed during the treatment. Maybe you should do some more research... or maybe you should just listen to the experiences of others.
If Chem Marin, Ruby Red Kick Ich or Dororthy's Ruby Red SLippers actaully were proven via studies and documeted studies effective against Marine Ich all the recognized names/authorities in the hobby would recommedn and promote them.
The fact the list is quite short or non-existent as to the recongnized names endorsing and/or recommending these products provides support for what I have said/stated.
I've already researched the topic regarding these so-called reef safe products. I invite you to do the same. Perhaps you will come to realize that the postion I present is not a minority view.
All you need to do is simply pose the question to Beth-Moderatpr for Disease over in the Disease FOrum as to if this product is effective and if she recommends/endorses them. I doubt she does but I really do not know for sure.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by jcrim

None of your listed factors changed during the treatment. .
Really? You monitored both systems 24/7 for all the contributors previous, during and after the outbreak? You examined via scientific means and documented the state of the immune system for each animal in the system before, during and after the treatment was completed ? When the lights went off there was no aggrression/stress in the system? The system was checked for ALL contributors of stress before and after treatment? Every single water parameter was montiored/tested daily before, during and after treatment?

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by potter
I recently purchased a yellow tang on Saturday and noticed Wednesday evening the tang was rubbing against the rock and upon inspection I discovered a few small white specks on the front two fins, and minimal on body. My question is, do I treat with lowering salinity or do I just flush him? I have been told that ick is almost impossible to cure. Will the other fish in the aquarium get ick also? I have a 72 gallon bowfront with a maroon clown, foxface, and damsel.
Any response would be greatly appreciated as this is a new setup and I am still learning. Thanks for your help!
You have a few choices...remove all the animals to a QT tank and treat with hyposalnity (recommended) and leave the display run fallow for 4-6 weeks. Or, you can remove your inverts from the display and treat with hyposalinity.
You could also treat the animals with copper in a QT but there are some bad side effects when animals are exposed to copper.
You could also feed the fish some vitamin soaked and garlic soaked food.
You could remove the yellow to a QT and treat with hyposalinity. However, after treating and placing back in the display he may get the disease again. As long as there is a host fish in the system, it becomes quite difficult to break ich cycles from reoccuring in a short period.
Do not flush the fish.....that will do little.
Also, tnags require mature systems of at least 6 moths, plenty water movement and plenty greens in their diet. You may also want to check the system for stray voltage. This can cause stress (one of the contributors) which could lead to an outbreak.
Also, if your tang is pretty big the four foot of swimming space may casue some stress. Yellows do better in larger systems. No absolutes but as they get bigger they do require more space...a minimum of 6 feet as they approach adulthood.
Check your water parmaters and make sure all are within acceptable limits.
Again, the only proven methods to sucessfully treat marine ich is copper based additives and hypo. Copper is like chemotherapy for fish...and tangs sometimes do not react well to the exposure.
The garlic soaked food does show promise, but there is simply not enough studies on this and it has yet to be proven as a effective cure once you have an outbreak. Jorge Cortes has a very well written article regarding garlic therapy.
Both hyposalinity and copper are deadly to inverts.
I do discourage the use of the reef safe products...in case you missed that

Simply my opinion.
Best of luck

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Harndog
Bob did you guys just use kick ich or did you take other precautions? What temp did you run your tank at? I have a hippo in a 175 with a d sailfin and a 150 lbs of lr as well as hermits and some snails. I am affraid catching her and putting in a smaller QT would just cause her to stress more possibly even killing her I would also have to catch the sailfin and she is 6 or 7 inches long. I really need something and have heard kick ich works and have heard it don't. A success story would be great.
If you decide to use kick ich you should elevate the temp to around 82 as long as you have plenty water movement. This will help speed up the cycle. The last thing you want to do is lower the temp as I have seen some suggest. This does not stop the cycle but rather prolongs it.
best of luck

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by skiutah
I just cured ick from my 120 reef.

I have 4 tangs and every one of my 10 fish had ick pretty bad. I used garlic extreme on food and then put it into the tank. Within 1 week it had almost cleared up. I then kept using it and it cleared up after about 2 weeks. It has been another 3 weeks since then and I have not seen any cases of ick.

(Knock on wood)

NOTE: I also picked up 4 cleaner shrimp and a good UV sterilzer when I saw the first case of ick, so I think that helped out too.
have you read the article by Jorge Cortes? It pertains to garlic therapy. Still yet to be proven but it does show promise. he makes a very compelling case.

 

[mavgi]

scubadoo i don't have nothing against you and i am sure that you have good experience to, but always i read your advice against ich to use with cooper and i don't know why you against or not think that hypo it's easy and better treatment. i use with cooper in the past to treat a tang and the fish get blind after i try 2 time hypo and the fish get health and it was easy i think and i am sure that treatment with hypo more easy and more safety and specially to new hobbyist they can control on hypo tratment more easy then cooper and less risky. anyway this is my opinion.
michael

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by mavgi
scubadoo i don't have nothing against you and i am sure that you have good experience to, but always i read your advice against ich to use with cooper and i don't know why you against or not think that hypo it's easy and better treatment. i use with cooper in the past to treat a tang and the fish get blind after i try 2 time hypo and the fish get health and it was easy i think and i am sure that treatment with hypo more easy and more safety and specially to new hobbyist they can control on hypo tratment more easy then cooper and less risky. anyway this is my opinion.
michael
I beleive if you go back and read what I have posted you will see I am onlystating copper is a proven method for fighting marine ich. I also state the drawbacks of using copper and recommed hyposailinity.
Copper does work, with bad side effects as I have stated.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[bob a.]

Originally Posted by Harndog
Bob did you guys just use kick ich or did you take other precautions? What temp did you run your tank at? I have a hippo in a 175 with a d sailfin and a 150 lbs of lr as well as hermits and some snails. I am affraid catching her and putting in a smaller QT would just cause her to stress more possibly even killing her I would also have to catch the sailfin and she is 6 or 7 inches long. I really need something and have heard kick ich works and have heard it don't. A success story would be great.

Boy, I am sorry I didnt catch up with this thread earlier. Twice we have used it. Last time it was due to putting in a flame angle w/o quarentine. Yeah I know, but live and learn. Anyway, all we did was follow the directions on the bottle. It takes several doses (3-4) over a specific amount of time. We also run a sterilizer and that may or may not help, but its been there for awhile now.
I wont get into the whole debate whether Kick Ick works or not, for us it does. We have 3 tangs in the reef, a blue hippo, yellow and an achilles. We have not had any issues with ick for well over a year, probably closer to two. It was recommended to us by the owner of the lfs, who is by training a marine biologist. The other thing is you cant treat the disease alone, it has to be a more systematic approach. If your water quality is poor, the fish will be more susceptable to any disease that comes along. I would try the kick ick and monitor the water quality and work to fix any problems that you might find. good luck.

 

[boat racer]

Ok its been my excperience that Kick ich is a waste of money.The BEST WAY TO GET RID OF ICH IS A CLEAN CONSISTANT SYSTEM.I have always fresh water dipped my fish prior to putting them into my system.No QT for me.I did that for a year or so and still got ich.Big waste of time in my opinion.Keep the water as stable as you can at all times=salinity,temp,water level,lighting on controled regiment,do not overcrowd,keep only fish that are compatable with oneanother,good flow great filtration(UV STERILIZERS ARE A JOKE IN SALTWATER) and lastly dont add small tangs to your system.They are easy targets for stress and other fish to pick on.They almost allways are the first to get ich............Heres the kicker...I always fresh water dipp any fish that gets ich for 5-8 minutes.The fresh water dipp must have amquil in it for about 30 minutes or use RO/DI water then get the temp in check and an airstone.No light either.Even if the fish lays down on the bottum of the dipp tank its still fine.They are not dying nudge them avery couple of minutes to keep them awake and then put them back into the system.This has worked for me every time during my learning years of saltwater fish keeping.I havent had ich for over two and a half years now............Oh ya and if ya have a all fish tank with artaficial decorations.Copper works great after the third dose.You have to get the copper level up to be effective.Buy a copper test kit to make sure the copper is high enough to work.Two weeks after the ich is gone then remove the copper from the system with carbon.Its not good to run constant copper levels due to bad coloring in your fish.Feed high vitamin foods as well.

......You can also always count on ich showing up at night when the lights are off.When you first notice the ich it s in the morning when you turn the lights on.I have also left the lights on for three days straight after seeing the first sign.That has also worked for me.I know it sounds strange but it has worked.

 

[grumpygils]

Originally Posted by Bob A.
Boy, I am sorry I didnt catch up with this thread earlier. Twice we have used it. Last time it was due to putting in a flame angle w/o quarentine. Yeah I know, but live and learn. Anyway, all we did was follow the directions on the bottle. It takes several doses (3-4) over a specific amount of time. We also run a sterilizer and that may or may not help, but its been there for awhile now.
I wont get into the whole debate whether Kick Ick works or not, for us it does. We have 3 tangs in the reef, a blue hippo, yellow and an achilles. We have not had any issues with ick for well over a year, probably closer to two. It was recommended to us by the owner of the lfs, who is by training a marine biologist. The other thing is you cant treat the disease alone, it has to be a more systematic approach. If your water quality is poor, the fish will be more susceptable to any disease that comes along. I would try the kick ick and monitor the water quality and work to fix any problems that you might find. good luck.

Well, I don't know if my RG and 6 line wrasse kicked it by them self or it was kick ick, but I used it for two weeks and now it appears to be gone for the last 5 days?
Mc

 

[boat racer]

Originally Posted by grumpygils
Well, I don't know if my RG and 6 line wrasse kicked it by them self or it was kick ick, but I used it for two weeks and now it appears to be gone for the last 5 days?
Mc
Intresting point.I have also let it be and watched very carefully and in three to five days it can go away on its own.No t allways but I have observed it to cylce itself so to speak.

 

[bob a.]

Originally Posted by grumpygils
Well, I don't know if my RG and 6 line wrasse kicked it by them self or it was kick ick, but I used it for two weeks and now it appears to be gone for the last 5 days?
Mc

Off the top of my head I dont remember the total time it should take for the ich lifecycle to finish but I dont think 2 weeks is long enough. In another month if it doesnt show up again you will have probably licked it.

 

[bob a.]

Originally Posted by Boat Racer
Ok its been my excperience that Kick ich is a waste of money.The BEST WAY TO GET RID OF ICH IS A CLEAN CONSISTANT SYSTEM.I have always fresh water dipped my fish prior to putting them into my system.No QT for me.I did that for a year or so and still got ich.Big waste of time in my opinion.Keep the water as stable as you can at all times=salinity,temp,water level,lighting on controled regiment,do not overcrowd,keep only fish that are compatable with oneanother,good flow great filtration(UV STERILIZERS ARE A JOKE IN SALTWATER) and lastly dont add small tangs to your system.They are easy targets for stress and other fish to pick on.They almost allways are the first to get ich............Heres the kicker...I always fresh water dipp any fish that gets ich for 5-8 minutes.The fresh water dipp must have amquil in it for about 30 minutes or use RO/DI water then get the temp in check and an airstone.No light either.Even if the fish lays down on the bottum of the dipp tank its still fine.They are not dying nudge them avery couple of minutes to keep them awake and then put them back into the system.This has worked for me every time during my learning years of saltwater fish keeping.I havent had ich for over two and a half years now............Oh ya and if ya have a all fish tank with artaficial decorations.Copper works great after the third dose.You have to get the copper level up to be effective.Buy a copper test kit to make sure the copper is high enough to work.Two weeks after the ich is gone then remove the copper from the system with carbon.Its not good to run constant copper levels due to bad coloring in your fish.Feed high vitamin foods as well.

......You can also always count on ich showing up at night when the lights are off.When you first notice the ich it s in the morning when you turn the lights on.I have also left the lights on for three days straight after seeing the first sign.That has also worked for me.I know it sounds strange but it has worked.
Your arguement doesnt hold water. While I would not argue that good husbandry is the best way to keep ick and other diseases out of the tank, but you start off by saying that a freshwater dip is the best way to keep it out and then that you say you still got ick after using this method. The other thing you dont mention is that once a fish with ick gets into the tank, the ick parasite, c. irritans gets into the tank and can re-infect other fish down the road. If you dont deal with the parasite in the tank, the cycle will repeat. The other issue is that people with a well established reef tank are somewhat loathe to tear it all apart in order to either remove all the corals and inverts or to just capture the fish and if you throw copper in the tank, then the rock will have it which will negatively affect the inverts. Suggest you do some research before you get hit with ich again. Look at this site as one example:http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html
You also caution against keeping tangs, but many folks keep tangs without problems, I have 3 in the reef tank, a blue hippo, a yellow and an achilles which I am told is a tough one but I have never had problems with any of them since the tank stabilized after its second year. Finally, the procedure you talk about for dipping your fish shoulds incredibly stressful, and just because you havent killed any yet, doesnt mean its the best method to use.

 

[boat racer]

Originally Posted by Bob A.
Your arguement doesnt hold water. While I would not argue that good husbandry is the best way to keep ick and other diseases out of the tank, but you start off by saying that a freshwater dip is the best way to keep it out and then that you say you still got ick after using this method. The other thing you dont mention is that once a fish with ick gets into the tank, the ick parasite, c. irritans gets into the tank and can re-infect other fish down the road. If you dont deal with the parasite in the tank, the cycle will repeat. The other issue is that people with a well established reef tank are somewhat loathe to tear it all apart in order to either remove all the corals and inverts or to just capture the fish and if you throw copper in the tank, then the rock will have it which will negatively affect the inverts. Suggest you do some research before you get hit with ich again. Look at this site as one example:http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html
You also caution against keeping tangs, but many folks keep tangs without problems, I have 3 in the reef tank, a blue hippo, a yellow and an achilles which I am told is a tough one but I have never had problems with any of them since the tank stabilized after its second year. Finally, the procedure you talk about for dipping your fish shoulds incredibly stressful, and just because you havent killed any yet, doesnt mean its the best method to use.
Well BOB I didnt post anything but my exsperience wich has proven to work for me.Secondly Yes I have had ich (while I was still new and learning mostly the basics of salt water aquaria.I dip them now as a prventative measure wich I might add has worked.Yes its stressfull but the ich is usualy brought on from stress wich starts during a flight and delivery from fish suppliers or the local fish store.I do this to get rid of any that might be starting or might be on the fish from where I got them.Many times people bring ich in on other fish from the LFS.I posted this as an answer to a question wich is how to deal with ich on a yellow tang....I do still believe that its common knoledge that TANGS are usualy the most suseptable fish to get ich thats why I said to maybe stay away from them.I have a sailfin that I love and has nevr gotten ich even after transfering from one tank to another....I am well aware of the difficulty of netting a fish with ich from an established reef tank.You trap them.I have had great success traping my fish after a little thought.You mention dealing with the ich so that down the road the other fish dont get it.There again thats why I tried to make the point that consistant peramiters,tank cleanlyness and other points I made were to prevent the fish from getting stressed into ich.I'm glad your tangs never got ich yet thats great,want a cookie?

....If you think everything I said here is rediculous than so be it.I have a very succesful reef and have in the past.The learning curve was where all my headaches were.You know many people have different views techniques and ideas on how to take care of their system.Mine works just fine....Would you rather I delete my first post on this?...Hey BOB Why dont you go down to the LFS and ask them if they fresh water dipp their new fish before they go into the main system......You can have your KICK ICK.Thats a waste of money.

 

[boat racer]

Here is direct quote from me first post.I did not say that people should stay away from tangs.Please read again TAKE NOTE TO THE WORD ....SMALL....
and lastly dont add small tangs to your system.They are easy targets for stress and other fish to pick on.They almost allways are the first to get ich............