Tank Cycling

[thewolfman777]

yes, very good advice from fshhub (i taught him everything he knows, lol, j/k) like he said scratch the cycle, it is a waste of money and delayed my cycle when i used it. do not do any water changes during the cycle either. this is the one time that is an exception on not doing water changes. all you have to do is monitor your water parameters at this time. also i would not any any inverts until you get your trates under control, 100 seems a little too high at this point. i don't know if it is normal but have never heard of such a high # at this early stage in the cycle. be patient and just wait it out.

 

[therock0861]

Ok ty for the advice.

 

[thewolfman777]

your welcome... <img src="graemlins//freak.gif" border="0" alt="[freak]" />

 

[krux]

Repost form another thread, as this same topic is bouncing around in a couple places:
I tested cycle in two 10 gallon tanks, which I was using for 1. a quarantine tank and 2. a hospital tank. Added 10 pounds of aragonite (sp?) 10 pounds of uncured lr from the same shipment, identical filters, identical heaters, and identical starting perameters. the one with cycle was at 0/0/20 in 27 days, the tank without it took 43 days to reach the same parameters. Personally I did not find the 8 dollars for the bottle excessive, and my test results seem to demonstrate that it does have an effect on tank cycling, 16 days in fact. I have also used it in my main tank without any adverse results.
I agree that this is not a hobby that should be rushed, and even after you have good parameters you should still wait, but unless you have honestly given something a shot and have reasonable results from it to say it did not work, I would have a hard time agreeing with making the automatic assumption that it a waste of time and money. A number of things could have killed $300.00 worth of fish, or caused a cycle to slow down. Aquariums are in most cases not clinical, and are prone to a number of outside influences.
The product is not an "instant fix" or a way to make it so that you do not need to properly cycle and maintain your tank. It is simply an additive that may assist you in culturing bacteria colonies in your tank. It is not going to turbo boost your bacteria cultures, as there is only so much area for them to affix to, but if your cycle is stuck in the ammonia or nitrite, even nitrate stage, this boost might work for you.
If anyone else has actually tried testing it, as opposed to dumping in a bottle and then noting no results feel free to speak up, I'd like to hear, but I was curious and actually did test it in as controlled a situation as possible, and did get results.... I'm gonna go with that for now. If you do not have anything to compare your main tank's cycle against when using a product (or not using a product if that is your choice), of course you will not be able to see results, there is no control to test it against.
There are several people on this board with different opinions of the product, and several of them have a lot of experience like fshhub. If in doubt error on the side of someone like him who has been in this hobby for years if you are concerned, they obviously have more experience than a new member to the hobby.

 

[jastim]

The results you saw with your small bench-top trial of "Cycle" does not suprise me. I have never used the stuff but in theory it should result in shortening the cycle time somewhat by providing more nitrifying bacteria in the early stages. Since bacteria go through several stages of doubling when there are more bacteria in the system from day 1 your overall time should be shortened. For example you start the doubling process with 500 million bacteria vs. several hundred thousand. Since it may take several hours for the bacteria to go through one doubling stage it should shorten the cycle. However, if you start your system with something like lr or ls it may not make a difference since your concentration of bacteria will be very high to begin with.
I found your trial interesting. Would be interested in hearing from anyone else who has experience with this stuff.
fshub: why do you think cycle resulted in loss of fish in your system? Did you see a spike in ammonia after it appeared it was done cycling?

 

[therock0861]

I added Cycle to my tank and the end result after just 10 hours was a reduction in the ammonia from .75 to .25 so as far as i am concerned so far so good.

 

[mh51072]

sounds kind of too good to be true--but if it works thats great--just hope its not a temporary thing and just prolongs ur effort---oh well,good luck and let us know <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />

 

[therock0861]

I will let you know how I end up i will test the trates and trites as well as the ammomia one more time tomorrow before waiting another week or two. Also I noticed the Damsels that are in the aquarium seemed more lively than usual and seem thrilled.

 

[lu]

Hi Rock! After your tank has cycled you can get some crabs, snails for algae but make sure you get at least one cleaner shrimp. They will actually pick the parasites off your fish and help keep them healthy and clean. They are awesome and fun to watch too. Mine is a "ham"...loves to show off. When I stick my hand in the tank he swims right over and tries to clean my arm. He's such a good boy...LOL
He's just TOO COOL....

 

[broomer5]

Interesting thread.
I've enjoyed reading this one.
As mentioned many times before - most people agree there is no single right way to cycle a tank. Everyone has their own procedure and opinions. That's what makes this such an interesting hobby.
I'll just make 2 comments on what I've read above.
1) IMO - It is possible it overdose "ANYTHING" we add to our tanks - if the volume is too great, including bacteria in a bottle.
If you follow the directions on the bottle - chances are you'll be okay. Arbitrarily dumping massive amounts of anything into a tank - with no way to directly monitor it's concentrations - is in my opinion asking for trouble.
2) If you are one that likes to watch the progress of your cycling tank, monitoring the traditional ammonia, nitrite and nitrate peaks and drop offs, then adding massive amounts of various strains of bacteria all at once makes it more difficult to determine where you are at in your cycle. Most everything I've read on the initial start of the nitrogen cycle - does not state anywhere " this is where you dump in all your bacteria at once". The progression is as mentioned above, based upon each strain of bacteria "doubling" and reproducing according to the level of it's fuel souce, be it ammonia, nitrite, or even nitrate for that matter.
Trying to predict what stage of the cycle your tank is in - by using this bacteria in a bottle, but then referring to charts that indicate the more traditional approach is just more difficult IMO. Not right or wrong, just more difficult.
Most of the charts assume a new tank, add a couple fish, and do your tests, and follow the "natural" curves of increasing and decreasing nitrogen compounds.
Many people choose to use Cycle - and that's fine. I have no doubt it will accelerate the cycling times, and the experiment that krux
did I found interesting as well.
As we all know, adding live rock, live sand or a few scoops of substrate from an established tank will speed things along as well.
I prefer this route as opposed to paying money for just the bacteria.
To each his own

 

[jastim]

broomer5: good summary. I agree with every point you made. In addition I want to bring up again the point regarding stability that fshhub bought up earlier. I think in using something like cycle you need to be careful to continue to monitor ammonia and nitrites after you "think" your cycle is complete. I could see a situation occuring where the effects of the bacteria in a bottle could be transient. What could happen is if you add a large dose of the bacteria to the water column initially you should see a fairly quick reduction in ammonia and nitrites due to a sudden surge in the bacteria that use these "nutrients" as food. However, the concern is if these bacteria do not become established in your filter media for whatever reason. If this happens you will see quick reductions in ammonia and nitrites but maybe a few days or week or two later the bacteria that you added may be dead and your tank is still not "cycled". By this time you may have already started stocking with expensive fish. This is one reason why I still prefer to let the tank cycle on its own or to use cycle sparingly in the beginning of the cycle with conintued monitoring for a week or two after you think the tank has cycled.

 

[broomer5]

good point jastim

 

[therock0861]

I agree and all of you have great points. My plan isn't to run right out and buy the fish as soon as my levels hit zero for the first time. I will wait and monitor all levels for another week at least after they hit zero before I buy another living creature.

 

[therock0861]

Update Ammonia Levels are at 0 trates and trites still what they were at on the initial post and maybe a little higher. Nitrates read .75 Nitrites are at 1.

 

[jastim]

Great!! One more thing to keep in mind when you are cycling your tank. Monitor KH and pH as often as you do your ammonia and nitrite levels. The nitrification process robs your system of a lot of alkalinity by using up carbonate ion during the two main conversion reactions. It also produces organic acids as a byproduct. Depending on your bioload, this can quickly reduce your alkalinity and once this is low enough your pH is subjected to very fast reductions. My advice is to monitor both your alkalinity and pH at least every few days. When you notice it getting lower add something like marine buffer. Your fish are already under a lot of stress because of the high level of contaminates. Haveing a fluctuating pH is just another stressor that could mean the difference between your fish living and dying through the cycling process. You can also use baking soda but I prefer Marine buffer since it is a little tougher to OD on this (but still very possible). I try to keep my KH above 10 during cycling. Overfeeding will will also result in unstable pH and severe reduction in alkalinity. I think the effect of alkalinity (and the corresponding pH swings) on fish health is often overlooked during the cycling process.
Good luck!!

 

[fshhub]

ok, the cycyle may help to reduce ammonia and all, but i would, as krux said, NOT rely on it as a cure all to the cycle, his test does intrigue me as well, and his conditions were as controlled AS POSSIBLE, but there are still some variables, the rock that he recieved is still not (even though it may be close, and we would assume)exactly the same, all living organisms vary somewhat, and if a piece were laying in more moisture than another, this definitely could have a variable, if one has more algae that survives, ther is another variable(and a great on)
i am humbled, and enjoy the comparison, but i must add, like krux said not rely on it and start adding fish in 2 or 3 days, as the bottle and the lfs's would let you believe,
i do have to disagree with one statement though, and i hope that krux will agree here, and that would not to be use the word error in this particular text and instance, for he knows as i do that to follow(me as stated)would not be to err, but to follow advice, i would offer the same consideration, i never tell anyone they are wrong, in matters like this, only if it is a dangerous definite problem, but never in a method that will be fine(even if i think it is not the BEST method, if it will be ok i will not use terminology in this manner)
and believe as you may, those fish all died from a nitrite problem, after enough research and a writtten lettter, the lfs, at the advice of his attorney had refunded my money, no businesss will ever do so(with that kind of money) unless they have afear of losing something, so think what you may about my situation, the fact is that he did pay us after trying to prove me wrong, his attorney his breeders adn 3 marine biologist all told him that my facts were more than good and would have a good case (before i threatened to pursue legal action), he had tried very hard to prove me wrong first, now i only wish i had done as much research on the matter BEFORE i had bought the fish(i hated to loose the fish)
as far as speed, i have successfull cycled a tank in 2 and a half weeks(it was over 2 and less than 3) using lr, i have seen ls cycle in a little over a week, and really like the combination of the 2
we have used cycle, ls. lr, and combos of the 3, i have used ugf's, box filters, cartridge and none, my tests altough not as controlled are tried experiences, and i must say that cycle if used properly will not hurt as an aid(like mentioned by krux) ONLY, my only concern is the stability fo using quickie solutions of any type
in anycase thanks for the input, i really appreciated the comparison too