Tattered Fins On Fish
- Thread starter firstborn
- Start date
firstborn
Member
Originally Posted by saltn00b
a couple of them? what is your water parameters? are they fighting? do you have any inverts like crabs, lobsters CBS shrimps ?
Yeah, I think there is some nipping going on.
No inverts in the tank right now.
Ph 8.3
Salinity - 12ppt (in hypo)
Nitrites - undetectable
Ammonia - undetectable
Nitrates - Over 100 (It has always been this way, I think it is from the city water).
a couple of them? what is your water parameters? are they fighting? do you have any inverts like crabs, lobsters CBS shrimps ?
Yeah, I think there is some nipping going on.
No inverts in the tank right now.
Ph 8.3
Salinity - 12ppt (in hypo)
Nitrites - undetectable
Ammonia - undetectable
Nitrates - Over 100 (It has always been this way, I think it is from the city water).
saltn00b
Active Member
tattered fins, can easily come from poor water quality, and trates over 100 is likely going to do that without a doubt, as it burns them.
by saying city water, that tells me you are using tap water. this is a big NO NO and you need to be using RO or RO/DI water for all applications, mixing salt if you do that, topping off, etc. you may introducing harsh metals and other toxins into the tank that will harm or kill the fish, and more likely any inverts you may add in the future.
by saying city water, that tells me you are using tap water. this is a big NO NO and you need to be using RO or RO/DI water for all applications, mixing salt if you do that, topping off, etc. you may introducing harsh metals and other toxins into the tank that will harm or kill the fish, and more likely any inverts you may add in the future.
firstborn
Member
Originally Posted by chadman
put your water into a glass and perform a water test to see if it is actually your tap water and not something dieing in your tank...
Chlorine in city water can mask Nitrates.
I am not concerned about Nitrates. There was an article posted in Marine Aquarium magazine that talked about Nitrates. Several leading scientists said that Nitrates are not harmfull to fish, and that companies are pushing it to sell products that lower Nitrates.
A friend of mine has a beautifull reef system filled with corals that has Nitrates over 200. Everything is flourishing fine.
put your water into a glass and perform a water test to see if it is actually your tap water and not something dieing in your tank...
Chlorine in city water can mask Nitrates.
I am not concerned about Nitrates. There was an article posted in Marine Aquarium magazine that talked about Nitrates. Several leading scientists said that Nitrates are not harmfull to fish, and that companies are pushing it to sell products that lower Nitrates.
A friend of mine has a beautifull reef system filled with corals that has Nitrates over 200. Everything is flourishing fine.
rbaldino
Active Member
Originally Posted by Firstborn
I mainly wanted confirmation about nipping, and if it will heal over time.
Like I said, it probably will. Sometimes you can see a line, like a scar I guess, where the fins regrew.
Good for you for taking a stand on nitrates. There are a lot of people on this board who believe one thing or another and hate to be disagreed with. I thought the nitrate thing was a bit suspicious myself. Like you, I know people who have extremely high nitrate in their tanks and everything is just fine. If nitrate were going to do anything, I doubt it would be to tear fins. The only similar thing I've heard of is ammonia burning gills, and that's obviously not what's going on here.
That said, his advice about testing your tap water is good advice. If nothing else, it's good for you to know what you're working with.
I mainly wanted confirmation about nipping, and if it will heal over time.
Like I said, it probably will. Sometimes you can see a line, like a scar I guess, where the fins regrew.
Good for you for taking a stand on nitrates. There are a lot of people on this board who believe one thing or another and hate to be disagreed with. I thought the nitrate thing was a bit suspicious myself. Like you, I know people who have extremely high nitrate in their tanks and everything is just fine. If nitrate were going to do anything, I doubt it would be to tear fins. The only similar thing I've heard of is ammonia burning gills, and that's obviously not what's going on here.
That said, his advice about testing your tap water is good advice. If nothing else, it's good for you to know what you're working with.
rbaldino
Active Member
Originally Posted by saltn00b
rbald, your city water may be a lot less toxic or whatever else than firstborns.
also , he said his trates are over 100, if he doesnt know just how much over 100, he could be at 200, 300 and up, which is higly catastrophic levels.
True, my water could be quite different from his. In fact, my city water is quite good, among the best in the country. At the same time, I doubt nitrates are causing the fins to tear. If they really are at toxic levels, the fish would probably just be dying.
rbald, your city water may be a lot less toxic or whatever else than firstborns.
also , he said his trates are over 100, if he doesnt know just how much over 100, he could be at 200, 300 and up, which is higly catastrophic levels.
True, my water could be quite different from his. In fact, my city water is quite good, among the best in the country. At the same time, I doubt nitrates are causing the fins to tear. If they really are at toxic levels, the fish would probably just be dying.
firstborn
Member
Originally Posted by rbaldino
Like I said, it probably will. Sometimes you can see a line, like a scar I guess, where the fins regrew.
Good for you for taking a stand on nitrates. There are a lot of people on this board who believe one thing or another and hate to be disagreed with. I thought the nitrate thing was a bit suspicious myself. Like you, I know people who have extremely high nitrate in their tanks and everything is just fine. If nitrate were going to do anything, I doubt it would be to tear fins. The only similar thing I've heard of is ammonia burning gills, and that's obviously not what's going on here.
That said, his advice about testing your tap water is good advice. If nothing else, it's good for you to know what you're working with.
I think you are on to something with water quality. I just tested Nitrites, and they are at 3.0!
My tank is currently in hypo to treat ich. I am doing a 25% water change tomorrow morning.
Like I said, it probably will. Sometimes you can see a line, like a scar I guess, where the fins regrew.
Good for you for taking a stand on nitrates. There are a lot of people on this board who believe one thing or another and hate to be disagreed with. I thought the nitrate thing was a bit suspicious myself. Like you, I know people who have extremely high nitrate in their tanks and everything is just fine. If nitrate were going to do anything, I doubt it would be to tear fins. The only similar thing I've heard of is ammonia burning gills, and that's obviously not what's going on here.
That said, his advice about testing your tap water is good advice. If nothing else, it's good for you to know what you're working with.
I think you are on to something with water quality. I just tested Nitrites, and they are at 3.0!
My tank is currently in hypo to treat ich. I am doing a 25% water change tomorrow morning.
saltn00b
Active Member
although trates you can let slide with fish, miniscule amounts of trite are deadly, period. but i see you take that seriously and are doing a water change, so keep up the good work. if it is a newly set up QT or you are over feeding or even if feeding sparingly in an always set up QT, the tank will show varying signs of the ammo cycle, because during hypo there are few remaining nitrogen fixing bacteria, and no LR or LS to aid in the fixing. also , always stay on top of alkalinity and pH, as they can drop rapidly at the low salinity.
hatessushi
Active Member
I can tell you that your city water may have a few nitrates (1-3 but not in the numbers like you have in your tank. Very little nitrates and phosphates are in your city water. If it was that high then your city would be in trouble from the health department.
It is a common misconception that nitrates and phosphates in city water causes diatoms. the fact that your fish has frayed fins is not from the nitrates but from what you said the nipping. If the fish nip at each other then they are getting ripped at probably when you are not watching. If you have nitrites then you need to perform a water change each day until they are down to less then 1. Nitrites at that level can cause your fish to react in different ways and maybe the nipping is doing more damage then it normally would. The fish will also act differently with hypo.
It is a common misconception that nitrates and phosphates in city water causes diatoms. the fact that your fish has frayed fins is not from the nitrates but from what you said the nipping. If the fish nip at each other then they are getting ripped at probably when you are not watching. If you have nitrites then you need to perform a water change each day until they are down to less then 1. Nitrites at that level can cause your fish to react in different ways and maybe the nipping is doing more damage then it normally would. The fish will also act differently with hypo.
hatessushi
Active Member
Originally Posted by rbaldino
Like I said, it probably will. Sometimes you can see a line, like a scar I guess, where the fins regrew.
Good for you for taking a stand on nitrates. There are a lot of people on this board who believe one thing or another and hate to be disagreed with. I thought the nitrate thing was a bit suspicious myself. Like you, I know people who have extremely high nitrate in their tanks and everything is just fine. If nitrate were going to do anything, I doubt it would be to tear fins. The only similar thing I've heard of is ammonia burning gills, and that's obviously not what's going on here.
That said, his advice about testing your tap water is good advice. If nothing else, it's good for you to know what you're working with.
I think you are wrong by saying that there are a lot of people on this board that hate to be disagreed with. I think it is the contrary. You will find most people do discuss issues with their tank issues with the hope of finding solutions, and others that offer possible solutions. I can tell you that all the people I know on this board will say that nitrates are a sign of degraded water quality. To say "having extremely high nitrates and everything is fine" is an irresponsible comment. Things may seem fine at the moment but they are not and a system that is not maintained properly will eventually crash.
consider this;
"By itself nitrates are not a concern for most livestock and systems. What a measure of nitrate can and should do for the hobbiest is serve as a guide to the total water-quality picture. There are many other chemical and physical changes that occur in a small captive system that are characteristic of overcrowding in an artificial environment. A high nitrate reading almost assuredly means a build-up of other dissolved organic wastes and degraded water quality. Be aware of and resist those changes by having ample filtration and circulation capacity, by removing and diluting converted wastes via regular water changes, and by using live rock and calcerous substrates." (from "The conscientious Aquarist" by Robert M. Fenner)
Like I said, it probably will. Sometimes you can see a line, like a scar I guess, where the fins regrew.
Good for you for taking a stand on nitrates. There are a lot of people on this board who believe one thing or another and hate to be disagreed with. I thought the nitrate thing was a bit suspicious myself. Like you, I know people who have extremely high nitrate in their tanks and everything is just fine. If nitrate were going to do anything, I doubt it would be to tear fins. The only similar thing I've heard of is ammonia burning gills, and that's obviously not what's going on here.
That said, his advice about testing your tap water is good advice. If nothing else, it's good for you to know what you're working with.
I think you are wrong by saying that there are a lot of people on this board that hate to be disagreed with. I think it is the contrary. You will find most people do discuss issues with their tank issues with the hope of finding solutions, and others that offer possible solutions. I can tell you that all the people I know on this board will say that nitrates are a sign of degraded water quality. To say "having extremely high nitrates and everything is fine" is an irresponsible comment. Things may seem fine at the moment but they are not and a system that is not maintained properly will eventually crash.
consider this;
"By itself nitrates are not a concern for most livestock and systems. What a measure of nitrate can and should do for the hobbiest is serve as a guide to the total water-quality picture. There are many other chemical and physical changes that occur in a small captive system that are characteristic of overcrowding in an artificial environment. A high nitrate reading almost assuredly means a build-up of other dissolved organic wastes and degraded water quality. Be aware of and resist those changes by having ample filtration and circulation capacity, by removing and diluting converted wastes via regular water changes, and by using live rock and calcerous substrates." (from "The conscientious Aquarist" by Robert M. Fenner)
hatessushi
Active Member
Originally Posted by Firstborn
Chlorine in city water can mask Nitrates.
I am not concerned about Nitrates. There was an article posted in Marine Aquarium magazine that talked about Nitrates. Several leading scientists said that Nitrates are not harmfull to fish, and that companies are pushing it to sell products that lower Nitrates.
A friend of mine has a beautifull reef system filled with corals that has Nitrates over 200. Everything is flourishing fine.
That fact that your friends system seems to be flourishing with corals and nitrates over 200 is on the fastrack to crashing. Corals + high nitrates do not mix well for long. If his nitrates are over 200 for long and the corals don't die then I would suspect a faulty nitrate test kit. In the oceans the corals don't have to deal with nitrates but a closed system will accumulate unless dealt with.
Chlorine in city water can mask Nitrates.
I am not concerned about Nitrates. There was an article posted in Marine Aquarium magazine that talked about Nitrates. Several leading scientists said that Nitrates are not harmfull to fish, and that companies are pushing it to sell products that lower Nitrates.
A friend of mine has a beautifull reef system filled with corals that has Nitrates over 200. Everything is flourishing fine.
That fact that your friends system seems to be flourishing with corals and nitrates over 200 is on the fastrack to crashing. Corals + high nitrates do not mix well for long. If his nitrates are over 200 for long and the corals don't die then I would suspect a faulty nitrate test kit. In the oceans the corals don't have to deal with nitrates but a closed system will accumulate unless dealt with.
rbaldino
Active Member
Originally Posted by HatesSushi
I think you are wrong by saying that there are a lot of people on this board that hate to be disagreed with. I think it is the contrary. You will find most people do discuss issues with their tank issues with the hope of finding solutions, and others that offer possible solutions. I can tell you that all the people I know on this board will say that nitrates are a sign of degraded water quality. To say "having extremely high nitrates and everything is fine" is an irresponsible comment. Things may seem fine at the moment but they are not and a system that is not maintained properly will eventually crash.
consider this;
"By itself nitrates are not a concern for most livestock and systems. What a measure of nitrate can and should do for the hobbiest is serve as a guide to the total water-quality picture. There are many other chemical and physical changes that occur in a small captive system that are characteristic of overcrowding in an artificial environment. A high nitrate reading almost assuredly means a build-up of other dissolved organic wastes and degraded water quality. Be aware of and resist those changes by having ample filtration and circulation capacity, by removing and diluting converted wastes via regular water changes, and by using live rock and calcerous substrates." (from "The conscientious Aquarist" by Robert M. Fenner)
See, you're disagreeing with me and it bugs you.
I don't think my comment was irresponsible. I was just stating something that I have experience with and was in no way recommending that everyone try it out for themselves. It was simply a different perspective, an addition to the knowledge base. Everyone on this board has had their own experiences, and many of us get to the same place while taking different routes.
As for your belief that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality, that's debatable. Nitrates are the natural end result of the nitrogen cycle present in most home aquariums. If anything, they're a sign that things are working right. Yes, they need to be controlled and limited with water changes, but for most of us they will always be there in some amount, regardless of water quality.
And I bet you're going to disagree with that, too.
I think you are wrong by saying that there are a lot of people on this board that hate to be disagreed with. I think it is the contrary. You will find most people do discuss issues with their tank issues with the hope of finding solutions, and others that offer possible solutions. I can tell you that all the people I know on this board will say that nitrates are a sign of degraded water quality. To say "having extremely high nitrates and everything is fine" is an irresponsible comment. Things may seem fine at the moment but they are not and a system that is not maintained properly will eventually crash.
consider this;
"By itself nitrates are not a concern for most livestock and systems. What a measure of nitrate can and should do for the hobbiest is serve as a guide to the total water-quality picture. There are many other chemical and physical changes that occur in a small captive system that are characteristic of overcrowding in an artificial environment. A high nitrate reading almost assuredly means a build-up of other dissolved organic wastes and degraded water quality. Be aware of and resist those changes by having ample filtration and circulation capacity, by removing and diluting converted wastes via regular water changes, and by using live rock and calcerous substrates." (from "The conscientious Aquarist" by Robert M. Fenner)
See, you're disagreeing with me and it bugs you.
I don't think my comment was irresponsible. I was just stating something that I have experience with and was in no way recommending that everyone try it out for themselves. It was simply a different perspective, an addition to the knowledge base. Everyone on this board has had their own experiences, and many of us get to the same place while taking different routes.
As for your belief that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality, that's debatable. Nitrates are the natural end result of the nitrogen cycle present in most home aquariums. If anything, they're a sign that things are working right. Yes, they need to be controlled and limited with water changes, but for most of us they will always be there in some amount, regardless of water quality.
And I bet you're going to disagree with that, too.
hatessushi
Active Member
It doesn't bug me in the least. How can you say that it bugs me when you don't know me?
You can disagree with anything I said and I will discuss it with you if you want. You can say and do anything you want.
It's not simply my belief that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality but you are the only one that I know of who believes it isn't. It is a known fact. As nitrates build up the quality of water degrades in that nutrients are building in the system and we need to remove them. I do agree with you that nitrates are a natural result of the nitrogen cycle but do not need to be the end result. Since what we have are unnatural environments we must remove that natural result but we can't do it exactly like the ocean does it. Most people remove it by diluting it which is a common way. Others remove it by the use of a denitrator or a place where anaerobic bacteria can grow and consume the nitrates. Still others use plants like cheatomorpha, algea and clams to help remove it. I suspect you know all this and we already agree with each other and maybe my calling you outright wrong wasn't the most intelligent thing to do and I apologize if it was a bit out of line.
I, like you, don't believe that nitrates is causing the fins to tear but it may contribute to it indirectly. Consider this, that the nitrates being so high is it possible that the behavior of the fish may be affected is such a way that it becomes more agressive and tears and others fins? What do you think?
I think this might me an unknown possible cause because we can't observe that in nature as the ocean lacks the nitrate levels.
You can disagree with anything I said and I will discuss it with you if you want. You can say and do anything you want.
It's not simply my belief that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality but you are the only one that I know of who believes it isn't. It is a known fact. As nitrates build up the quality of water degrades in that nutrients are building in the system and we need to remove them. I do agree with you that nitrates are a natural result of the nitrogen cycle but do not need to be the end result. Since what we have are unnatural environments we must remove that natural result but we can't do it exactly like the ocean does it. Most people remove it by diluting it which is a common way. Others remove it by the use of a denitrator or a place where anaerobic bacteria can grow and consume the nitrates. Still others use plants like cheatomorpha, algea and clams to help remove it. I suspect you know all this and we already agree with each other and maybe my calling you outright wrong wasn't the most intelligent thing to do and I apologize if it was a bit out of line.
I, like you, don't believe that nitrates is causing the fins to tear but it may contribute to it indirectly. Consider this, that the nitrates being so high is it possible that the behavior of the fish may be affected is such a way that it becomes more agressive and tears and others fins? What do you think?
I think this might me an unknown possible cause because we can't observe that in nature as the ocean lacks the nitrate levels.
rbaldino
Active Member
Originally Posted by HatesSushi
It doesn't bug me in the least. How can you say that it bugs me when you don't know me?
You can disagree with anything I said and I will discuss it with you if you want. You can say and do anything you want.
It's not simply my belief that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality but you are the only one that I know of who believes it isn't. It is a known fact. As nitrates build up the quality of water degrades in that nutrients are building in the system and we need to remove them. I do agree with you that nitrates are a natural result of the nitrogen cycle but do not need to be the end result. Since what we have are unnatural environments we must remove that natural result but we can't do it exactly like the ocean does it. Most people remove it by diluting it which is a common way. Others remove it by the use of a denitrator or a place where anaerobic bacteria can grow and consume the nitrates. Still others use plants like cheatomorpha, algea and clams to help remove it. I suspect you know all this and we already agree with each other and maybe my calling you outright wrong wasn't the most intelligent thing to do and I apologize if it was a bit out of line.
I, like you, don't believe that nitrates is causing the fins to tear but it may contribute to it indirectly. Consider this, that the nitrates being so high is it possible that the behavior of the fish may be affected is such a way that it becomes more agressive and tears and others fins? What do you think?
I thing this might me an unknown possible cause because we can't observe that in nature as the ocean lacks the nitrate levels.
You said that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality, as though they are the result of the water degrading, and that's not true. I think what you meant, but obviously didn't type the first time, is that nitrates can cause the water quality to degrade, and I would agree with that. That said, nitrates are among the least of our worries.
Do I think nitrates are involved in the fin tearing? I doubt it. I would think that the fish would demonstrate symptoms of being sick and unhealthy, not get more aggressive. But anything's possible.
It doesn't bug me in the least. How can you say that it bugs me when you don't know me?
You can disagree with anything I said and I will discuss it with you if you want. You can say and do anything you want.
It's not simply my belief that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality but you are the only one that I know of who believes it isn't. It is a known fact. As nitrates build up the quality of water degrades in that nutrients are building in the system and we need to remove them. I do agree with you that nitrates are a natural result of the nitrogen cycle but do not need to be the end result. Since what we have are unnatural environments we must remove that natural result but we can't do it exactly like the ocean does it. Most people remove it by diluting it which is a common way. Others remove it by the use of a denitrator or a place where anaerobic bacteria can grow and consume the nitrates. Still others use plants like cheatomorpha, algea and clams to help remove it. I suspect you know all this and we already agree with each other and maybe my calling you outright wrong wasn't the most intelligent thing to do and I apologize if it was a bit out of line.
I, like you, don't believe that nitrates is causing the fins to tear but it may contribute to it indirectly. Consider this, that the nitrates being so high is it possible that the behavior of the fish may be affected is such a way that it becomes more agressive and tears and others fins? What do you think?
I thing this might me an unknown possible cause because we can't observe that in nature as the ocean lacks the nitrate levels.
You said that nitrates are a sign of degrading water quality, as though they are the result of the water degrading, and that's not true. I think what you meant, but obviously didn't type the first time, is that nitrates can cause the water quality to degrade, and I would agree with that. That said, nitrates are among the least of our worries.
Do I think nitrates are involved in the fin tearing? I doubt it. I would think that the fish would demonstrate symptoms of being sick and unhealthy, not get more aggressive. But anything's possible.