Texas company battles to sell genetically altered GloFish
- Thread starter shanev
- Start date
kzlen
Member
I have the natural zebras. They are beautiful the way they are. Why do we have to go and change everything, just because we can. I would not contribute to the buying of these fish. Like the painted neons, pumped full of some fluorescent goo, just so they look cooler, more appealing to us. Just Say NO
dburr
Active Member
how do you know that fish you eat from the ocean does not eat jelly fish or other anemones
This is not about salt water fish.
If the fish do eat an anemones that is completely different than being injected by them. Eating leads to digesting, what does injecting do to them? I don't know do you? I would think it was meant to stay their for the life of the fish, not like a dye. I also IMO would think that their is a chemical soup in the mix seeing they are engineered. I wouldn't want that ending up on my table when it comes time to eat.
You want to get up in arms about something then gripe about the high levels of mercury in fish
This is sad yes, but I thought we were talking about fresh water ortimental fish?
Or if you must focus on live fish get all bent out of shape about those chinese walking catfish that have been decimating rivers over here .....
Another sad thing, again, these are not altered either. I just believe we do it one and it sells, it will be more and more fish. Why?
BTW, what's your point, or did you have a bad day at work? Just having my opinoin posted. Keep on the subject or start a new thread.
Sorry mods, delete if you want, and I apoligize.
Dan
This is not about salt water fish.
If the fish do eat an anemones that is completely different than being injected by them. Eating leads to digesting, what does injecting do to them? I don't know do you? I would think it was meant to stay their for the life of the fish, not like a dye. I also IMO would think that their is a chemical soup in the mix seeing they are engineered. I wouldn't want that ending up on my table when it comes time to eat.
You want to get up in arms about something then gripe about the high levels of mercury in fish
This is sad yes, but I thought we were talking about fresh water ortimental fish?
Or if you must focus on live fish get all bent out of shape about those chinese walking catfish that have been decimating rivers over here .....
Another sad thing, again, these are not altered either. I just believe we do it one and it sells, it will be more and more fish. Why?
BTW, what's your point, or did you have a bad day at work? Just having my opinoin posted. Keep on the subject or start a new thread.
Sorry mods, delete if you want, and I apoligize.
Dan
j-cal
Member
Ima get flamed here but i dont care.
1. there was for a reason. These fish are used to detect pollution/contaminants in water
2. me pet shop got them in today adn they look super tight. Keep in mind these arent injected or otherwise. The first embryos had DNA spliced into them and the rest are catpive bred. they can reproduce on their own and seem healthy and normal in every respect. i think its neat to be able to alter fish like this.
3. With the way these measure contaminants, how cool would it be to get fish that have drastic color changes for high ammonia levels etc. there could be practical uses, i mean we might be able to not use real test kits someday
All in all people that consider this torture havent seen real versions like i have. Additionally, silly experiments like this greater our understandning of genetics which may lead to unrelated advancements later in unexplored fields. If you would prefer us to nto learn anything about genetic code then i hope you also hope that we never find a cure for genetic disease. this is how people learn, but experimenting....they just got something exploitable this time...i small way to fund more research perhaps? who knows. we have a really neat handout for all people that buy them from my shop its a kewl item
1. there was for a reason. These fish are used to detect pollution/contaminants in water
2. me pet shop got them in today adn they look super tight. Keep in mind these arent injected or otherwise. The first embryos had DNA spliced into them and the rest are catpive bred. they can reproduce on their own and seem healthy and normal in every respect. i think its neat to be able to alter fish like this.
3. With the way these measure contaminants, how cool would it be to get fish that have drastic color changes for high ammonia levels etc. there could be practical uses, i mean we might be able to not use real test kits someday
All in all people that consider this torture havent seen real versions like i have. Additionally, silly experiments like this greater our understandning of genetics which may lead to unrelated advancements later in unexplored fields. If you would prefer us to nto learn anything about genetic code then i hope you also hope that we never find a cure for genetic disease. this is how people learn, but experimenting....they just got something exploitable this time...i small way to fund more research perhaps? who knows. we have a really neat handout for all people that buy them from my shop its a kewl item
scotts
Active Member
Originally posted by ShaneV
I feel genetically altering anything so it looks better is wrong, its my opinion. Imagine if someone altered poodles to be bright pink so they could they make a buck. Sure we can do it, but should we. Altering crops to grow better serves a greater purpose, this does not.
Shane, How very intersting! That is the generally the opposite opinion of people who are against genetrically engineering things. Most times they are against GE because they are afraid about what will happen if it gets in our food supply.
Also about your pink poodle analogy. Where did poodles come from? They were bred to look the way that they do. Just like dauchsands were bred to hunt animals in their borrows.
Once again do not take this as a flame, more as an interesting discussion. I would love to sit down with you, Sammy, Thomas, Bang and Rye over a case a beer and have a good talk.
Scott
naturelover
Member
Originally posted by Kingsman39
Still no cure for cancer.
no cure for Aids, no cure for parkinson disease. Darn there are many things needs to be solved before trying to alter a fish.
Some of you might jump and say these research leads into cure. But after all these years of research for those mentioned diseases, there are no cure yet. How a failure project( alterd fish were suppose to not bread on their own) is going to help studying to a cure. I am ok they do this things but you don't see the impact of these genetically alterd fish or food at once in human body ( this is the reason many europian countries do not import food from USA and vice versa) , it may take long time like those projects were taking long time.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by dburr
This is not about salt water fish.
If the fish do eat an anemones that is completely different than being injected by them. Eating leads to digesting, what does injecting do to them? I don't know do you? I would think it was meant to stay their for the life of the fish, not like a dye. I also IMO would think that their is a chemical soup in the mix seeing they are engineered. I wouldn't want that ending up on my table when it comes time to eat.
This is sad yes, but I thought we were talking about fresh water ortimental fish?
Another sad thing, again, these are not altered either. I just believe we do it one and it sells, it will be more and more fish. Why?
BTW, what's your point, or did you have a bad day at work? Just having my opinoin posted. Keep on the subject or start a new thread.
Sorry mods, delete if you want, and I apoligize.
Dan
Dan - nope - actually every day around here @ work is pretty crappy .... let me respond:
1. You are right not about SW fish - it is about genetically altering fish, but here is your original comment:
What if; these freash fish somehow get in the wild. They are eaten by bigger fish which are consumed by people?
I am making two points:
a.) People can eat fish that have eaten other critters with the same genetic make-up (anemones and jelly fish)
b.) If you are worried or want to start an e-mail petition about something harmful making its way to your dinner table when you eat fish I would highly suggest looking into mercury in fish (Fresh and salt). http://www.fda.gov/fdac/reprints/mercury.html
2. You then make this statement: but I thought we were talking about fresh water ortimental fish?
The walking catfish terrorizing fresh water ponds, rivers and lakes was brought in as an ornamental fresh water fish (much like the genetically altered fish we were discussing).
3. You state: I also IMO would think that their is a chemical soup in the mix seeing they are engineered. I wouldn't want that ending up on my table when it comes time to eat.
They are genetically engineered - no unatural chemicals are injected into these critters ... just unnatural genes. Those genes come from sea anemones and jelly fish. When a sea anemone or jellyfish dies in the wild the waste is most likely eaten by benethic critters (like shrimp) and then those critters are either consumed by fish or trawled out of the ocean and boiled and served with some nice cocktail sauce .....
4. I think someone in the thread mentioned why - but these fish have been genetically engineered to use for a vareity of scientific reasons ... pollutantion detection, genetic pairing manipulation, growth of beneficial outside cells to change a genetic trait (imagine - you are genetecially programmed to get say - cancer, alzheimers, male pattern baldness - and a geneticist somewhere figures out that a simple gene splice can change the way you look/feel/live by splicing some outside genes into your body??)
5. Not picking a fight with you dburr .... did you have a bad day
when it comes to ornamental fish, fish on your dinner table and the natural environment we live in there are a lot more causes/things to get involved in and worry about ..... hth ....
shanev
Member
Scotts-
No offense taken in any way,
I would love to sit down with you, Sammy, Thomas, Bang and Rye over a case a beer and have a good talk.
That would be interesting.
I too enjoy talking about intriguing subjects like this. To be honest Im not sure why I am against it, just something doesn't seem right about it. I think its just the man changing other animals nature for profit part. I'll admit I didnt realize that there was a true underlying research project and that it turned to this.
In a side note Im also against a lot of the mixed breeding of certain species of fish to create a new fish. Let me clarify that by getting a little more specific, its all these new African Cichlid species that come out that IMO could never make it in the wild. Accidental mix breeding amongst species we keep is one thing but creating a new species that cant propagate itself is another.
No offense taken in any way,
I would love to sit down with you, Sammy, Thomas, Bang and Rye over a case a beer and have a good talk.
That would be interesting.
I too enjoy talking about intriguing subjects like this. To be honest Im not sure why I am against it, just something doesn't seem right about it. I think its just the man changing other animals nature for profit part. I'll admit I didnt realize that there was a true underlying research project and that it turned to this.
In a side note Im also against a lot of the mixed breeding of certain species of fish to create a new fish. Let me clarify that by getting a little more specific, its all these new African Cichlid species that come out that IMO could never make it in the wild. Accidental mix breeding amongst species we keep is one thing but creating a new species that cant propagate itself is another.
bwmichael21
Member
i don't think its too too safe to be exposed to uv light, well the type i've used in lab leads to blindness if you look at it for too long
eric4usa
Member
SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- Citing ethical concerns, state regulators Wednesday refused to allow sales of the first bio-engineered household pet, a zebra fish that glows fluorescent. GloFish are expected to go on sale everywhere else next month.
California is the only state with a ban on genetically engineered species, and the Fish and Game Commission said it would not exempt the zebra fish from the law even if escaped fish would not pose a threat to the state's waterways.
"For me it's a question of values, it's not a question of science," said commissioner Sam Schuchat. "I think selling genetically modified fish as pets is wrong."
The 3-1 vote came moments after commissioners approved the state's 14th license for research into genetically modified fish. But commissioners drew the line on permitting widespread sales of a biotech fish for pure visual pleasure.
The normally black-and-silver zebra fish were inserted with genes from sea anemones or jellyfish to turn them red or green, and glow under black or ultraviolet lights.
Federal agencies have decided they have no jurisdiction over a bio-engineered household pet that is not intended for consumption.
Given California's extensive review, proponents had looked to its approval to dampen any concerns from other states or consumers that the fish might be harmful to the environment or if consumed by wayward pets or children.
'An abuse of the power we have over life'
Opponents view the decision as precedent-setting as they lobby for regulation on the national level.
Yorktown Technologies of Texas, which has the license to market the fish, and the state of Florida, in which the fish are grown, argued before the commission that the altered fish tolerate cold less than natural zebra fish, and they could not survive in California waters.
Environmental and public interest groups and commercial fishermen argued that the fish have been found to survive outside their native waters.
California residents buy 25 million ornamental fish a year, an eighth of the 200 million sold across the nation, Yorktown President Alan Blake said. He estimated that Californians might have bought two million of the genetically altered fish each year.
California adopted its regulations for fear genetically modified farmed fish, such as salmon, could get loose and devastate the state's wild populations.
Commissioners balked Wednesday even after acknowledging Californians could readily buy the fish in any neighboring state and bring them home.
"Welcome to the future. Here we are, playing around with the genetic bases of life," Schumchat said. "At the end of the day, I just don't think it's right to produce a new organism just to be a pet.
"To me, this seems like an abuse of the power we have over life, and I'm not prepared to go there today."
[hr]
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
California is the only state with a ban on genetically engineered species, and the Fish and Game Commission said it would not exempt the zebra fish from the law even if escaped fish would not pose a threat to the state's waterways.
"For me it's a question of values, it's not a question of science," said commissioner Sam Schuchat. "I think selling genetically modified fish as pets is wrong."
The 3-1 vote came moments after commissioners approved the state's 14th license for research into genetically modified fish. But commissioners drew the line on permitting widespread sales of a biotech fish for pure visual pleasure.
The normally black-and-silver zebra fish were inserted with genes from sea anemones or jellyfish to turn them red or green, and glow under black or ultraviolet lights.
Federal agencies have decided they have no jurisdiction over a bio-engineered household pet that is not intended for consumption.
Given California's extensive review, proponents had looked to its approval to dampen any concerns from other states or consumers that the fish might be harmful to the environment or if consumed by wayward pets or children.
'An abuse of the power we have over life'
Opponents view the decision as precedent-setting as they lobby for regulation on the national level.
Yorktown Technologies of Texas, which has the license to market the fish, and the state of Florida, in which the fish are grown, argued before the commission that the altered fish tolerate cold less than natural zebra fish, and they could not survive in California waters.
Environmental and public interest groups and commercial fishermen argued that the fish have been found to survive outside their native waters.
California residents buy 25 million ornamental fish a year, an eighth of the 200 million sold across the nation, Yorktown President Alan Blake said. He estimated that Californians might have bought two million of the genetically altered fish each year.
California adopted its regulations for fear genetically modified farmed fish, such as salmon, could get loose and devastate the state's wild populations.
Commissioners balked Wednesday even after acknowledging Californians could readily buy the fish in any neighboring state and bring them home.
"Welcome to the future. Here we are, playing around with the genetic bases of life," Schumchat said. "At the end of the day, I just don't think it's right to produce a new organism just to be a pet.
"To me, this seems like an abuse of the power we have over life, and I'm not prepared to go there today."
[hr]
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
scotts
Active Member
Shane, Cool.
I have to admit that I want to get some of these fish. However since I am in CA. I cannot buy them. However the officials readily admit that I can purchase them in another state and bring them to my house. Can you say trip to Vegas baby!!!!! I also have to admit I see where the officials are coming from. I can't remember the full details of the story but I know that there was a major lake here where someone released some predatory fish that they did not want anymore. The fish ended up taking over the lake and the only way to cure the problem was to kill all of the fish in the lake and then start from scratch. I also see the fact that if you make an exception for these fish it may open the gates for other GE fish. However IMO I don't think these fish pose a hazard as they cannot survive in the cold waters in the wild. So as you can see I can see both points of view. I can gurantee that the fish that I get will not be released into the wild. They will live out their lifespan in my aquarium.
Your argument about the mixed breeding is interesting as well. How do you feel about mules. This is a cross between a horse and a donkey and cannot reproduce itself. So why make a mule, I have no idea. Another thing I would like to know what you think about is the Betta fish. You know the colorful fish that you see in those little cups at the lfs. (BTW don't get me started on how they keep those fish. I think it is criminal to do that to a fish.) In the wild they are grey. However due to some mutations and creative breeding they are now very colorful gorgeous fish.
I will have to admit that I am on the fence about GE things. I can see the benefit and I can also see the problems.
Well I think that I am done. BTW the beer is cooling as I type.
Scott
I have to admit that I want to get some of these fish. However since I am in CA. I cannot buy them. However the officials readily admit that I can purchase them in another state and bring them to my house. Can you say trip to Vegas baby!!!!! I also have to admit I see where the officials are coming from. I can't remember the full details of the story but I know that there was a major lake here where someone released some predatory fish that they did not want anymore. The fish ended up taking over the lake and the only way to cure the problem was to kill all of the fish in the lake and then start from scratch. I also see the fact that if you make an exception for these fish it may open the gates for other GE fish. However IMO I don't think these fish pose a hazard as they cannot survive in the cold waters in the wild. So as you can see I can see both points of view. I can gurantee that the fish that I get will not be released into the wild. They will live out their lifespan in my aquarium.
Your argument about the mixed breeding is interesting as well. How do you feel about mules. This is a cross between a horse and a donkey and cannot reproduce itself. So why make a mule, I have no idea. Another thing I would like to know what you think about is the Betta fish. You know the colorful fish that you see in those little cups at the lfs. (BTW don't get me started on how they keep those fish. I think it is criminal to do that to a fish.) In the wild they are grey. However due to some mutations and creative breeding they are now very colorful gorgeous fish.
I will have to admit that I am on the fence about GE things. I can see the benefit and I can also see the problems.
Well I think that I am done. BTW the beer is cooling as I type.
Scott
dburr
Active Member
Over: I understand where your coming from. I understand they are genetic, I guess that was my misunderstanding.
Their are alot of unkowns here in this field. I guess to start on fish is safer than to start on humans.
But, listen to this statment, (I really don't want to go to religious arguments)
If you think it is "playing god" and wrong, why would god give us the knowlage to "play god" if he didnt want us to use it?
Don't forget God gave us the knowlage that they was forbiden fruit and not to eat it. We choose to eat it. Bad choice. God gave us knowlage and the brains to make choices.
We choose our path and he gave us dominion over the animals. Shouldn't we respect them. How many of you guys have reef tanks? How many of you came here when they got sick or wasn't eating? Why? Because you care for them. Care = respect. Now we're going to alter them? Is that respect? Don't you try to recreate there enviroment? How do you do that for a glofish?
Just think about how many young children will be turned on to this hobby but these little fish.
Today it's "lets get a glow fish, they are cool". Next week they foget all about them and the die from lack of food. That'll help our hobby, wont it. Lets stick'm in a sponge bob tank, turn on the black lights, put on Jimmy Hendrix and fire one up. LOL Don't forget the lazer lights too.
If you don't like fish the way they are, and some are very colorful, fresh and salt, then what makes you say they will all of a sudden be turned on to this hobby? If you don't like fish then buy a dog. If you don't like dogs then buy a pink poodle. LOL I just can't seeing any good coming out of this. It may only hurt our hobby.
I'm getting off my box. No offence to anyone. Dan
Their are alot of unkowns here in this field. I guess to start on fish is safer than to start on humans.
But, listen to this statment, (I really don't want to go to religious arguments)
If you think it is "playing god" and wrong, why would god give us the knowlage to "play god" if he didnt want us to use it?
Don't forget God gave us the knowlage that they was forbiden fruit and not to eat it. We choose to eat it. Bad choice. God gave us knowlage and the brains to make choices.
We choose our path and he gave us dominion over the animals. Shouldn't we respect them. How many of you guys have reef tanks? How many of you came here when they got sick or wasn't eating? Why? Because you care for them. Care = respect. Now we're going to alter them? Is that respect? Don't you try to recreate there enviroment? How do you do that for a glofish?
Just think about how many young children will be turned on to this hobby but these little fish.
Today it's "lets get a glow fish, they are cool". Next week they foget all about them and the die from lack of food. That'll help our hobby, wont it. Lets stick'm in a sponge bob tank, turn on the black lights, put on Jimmy Hendrix and fire one up. LOL
Don't forget the lazer lights too. If you don't like fish the way they are, and some are very colorful, fresh and salt, then what makes you say they will all of a sudden be turned on to this hobby? If you don't like fish then buy a dog. If you don't like dogs then buy a pink poodle.
LOL I just can't seeing any good coming out of this. It may only hurt our hobby.I'm getting off my box. No offence to anyone. Dan
ekclark
Member
I do not have any problem with this. I think it is more dangerous to release the regular, non-GE, fish into our domestic waters. It is crazy what people pull out of Lake Michigan. We no longer have the king of the fw lakes, the lake trout, in our system anymore because of pollution. Whole states cannot eat any fish in their lakes or rivers because of mercury, and now Bush is making so these companies don't have to clean up their plants or their own pollution. I don't mean to sidetrack this, but there are bigger issues facing the life of our aquatic friends. I'd take a GE fish if they designed it to be immune to disease. Heck, make a sw fish able to live in water mixed with sugar (so they cannot go back to the ocean) and then we could do some really neat things with them. 3" mature reef safe queen angels and triggers. Blue legs that love to eat red slime. Even something crazy like a turbo snail that can flip itself over. I have read Frankenstein and 2001 and understand how little we understand about making new life, but these are not sentient creatures that are going to look to us for answers we do not have. They are cool looking little danios that will be a fad for a while and then disappear. Thanks for listening to my blabbing Evan
Evan
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by dburr
Over: I understand where your coming from. I understand they are genetic, I guess that was my misunderstanding.
Their are alot of unkowns here in this field. I guess to start on fish is safer than to start on humans.
I'm getting off my box. No offence to anyone. Dan
No offense here - and I think you are right.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think there is a specific nudi-branch that is used heavily for genetic research (or is that nerves??)
As for religious issues - whoa baby - wait until someone gene splices a baby still developing in the womb (or before) ... then the ethics comes into huge play ....
I think EKCLark is right on - I grew up in Cleveland where you could not eat from the lake .... saw the lake get cleaned up - even eventually was able to eat our catches ... but FW loaches and stuff got into the lake would migrate to the power plant off avon and you would see some interesting fish there ....
