The cure for the failing goniopora
- Thread starter iceemn360
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john kelly
Member
Originally Posted by tonyx
Most beautiful, challenging, demanding, rewarding system ever...2 part natural lee eng systems, sump w/macro...nothing above NSW values!!!!!
that means Mg Ca Mn EVERYTHING!!!!! These corals let you know when things are off, immediately by retracting. Surprisingly long photoperiods benefit them all, so oxidative damage theory is incorrect, to say the very least. This one gets 16.5hrs at 9 watts gallon w good reflectors very.....high light....needs, not low at all...not even. These corals are exquisite, but its the system and experience/knowledge of the keeper lending success to long term....nothing special at all
How long have you had them?
The oxidative stress damage theory is not incorrect. It is a fact and is quite common. It is the hypothesis that dosing Iron and Manganese protects them from oxidative stress damage that is incorrect.
Goniopora stokesi is especially sensitive to higher intensity lighting and can slowly bleach over time; as well as at least several other species of Goniopora. Post another photo in about 6 months and we can see if any of yours are negatively affected. How far off of the water surface is your bulb(s) and what temp do you keep your tank at?
Most beautiful, challenging, demanding, rewarding system ever...2 part natural lee eng systems, sump w/macro...nothing above NSW values!!!!!
that means Mg Ca Mn EVERYTHING!!!!! These corals let you know when things are off, immediately by retracting. Surprisingly long photoperiods benefit them all, so oxidative damage theory is incorrect, to say the very least. This one gets 16.5hrs at 9 watts gallon w good reflectors very.....high light....needs, not low at all...not even. These corals are exquisite, but its the system and experience/knowledge of the keeper lending success to long term....nothing special at all
How long have you had them?
The oxidative stress damage theory is not incorrect. It is a fact and is quite common. It is the hypothesis that dosing Iron and Manganese protects them from oxidative stress damage that is incorrect.
Goniopora stokesi is especially sensitive to higher intensity lighting and can slowly bleach over time; as well as at least several other species of Goniopora. Post another photo in about 6 months and we can see if any of yours are negatively affected. How far off of the water surface is your bulb(s) and what temp do you keep your tank at?
tonyx
New Member
Yes they all oxidize rapidly if the composition of the waterquality remains out of balance for short periods of time(48-72 hrs), otherwise they handle excessive UV well. Tenuidens pictured was bleached, now it thrives and is 3" from T5s actinic 03, with polished reflector, no lens barrier! 76-86`
The problem seems to be that people overlook simplicity, its not anything fancy....no skimmers, thriving fuge, good lighting, all usual supplements.
I will post a recent picture tonight and another in 6.
Bleaching is oxidative damage but its not the problem with goni, its a combination of several factors. mineral/amino/nutrients-deficiency/excesses for starters. I know stokesi damages easy, it does yes.
They are exposed to drastic swings of ph/Ca/temp/trace elements, but not light in this system. I never direct feed, only the water with chromamax.
The problem seems to be that people overlook simplicity, its not anything fancy....no skimmers, thriving fuge, good lighting, all usual supplements.
I will post a recent picture tonight and another in 6.
Bleaching is oxidative damage but its not the problem with goni, its a combination of several factors. mineral/amino/nutrients-deficiency/excesses for starters. I know stokesi damages easy, it does yes.
They are exposed to drastic swings of ph/Ca/temp/trace elements, but not light in this system. I never direct feed, only the water with chromamax.
john kelly
Member
Originally Posted by tonyx
Yes they all oxidize rapidly if the composition of the waterquality remains out of balance for short periods of time(48-72 hrs), otherwise they handle excessive UV well.
This is why I asked how long you have had them for. It usually takes anywhere from 1day to 8months for the effects of excessive UV to show. If it doesn't noticeably affect them immediately, it can do it slowly over time. The tenuidens isn't as susceptible as other species.
Originally Posted by tonyx
Tenuidens pictured was bleached, now it thrives and is 3" from T5s actinic 03, with polished reflector, no lens barrier! 76-86`
That's good that it revived
. Judging from your photo, I thought the lighting looked about like 10k MH.
Originally Posted by tonyx
The problem seems to be that people overlook simplicity, its not anything fancy....no skimmers, thriving fuge, good lighting, all usual supplements.
I will post a recent picture tonight and another in 6.
Tens of thousands of people have tried the "simplicity" method over the past decade or two, but very few have been "successful"; and those are usually the people with LARGE systems.
A 6 month pic would be good. With all the subtle changes that occur, it is difficult to do a comparison by memory.
Originally Posted by tonyx
Bleaching is oxidative damage but its not the problem with goni, its a combination of several factors. mineral/amino/nutrients-deficiency/excesses for starters. I know stokesi damages easy, it does yes.
They are exposed to drastic swings of ph/Ca/temp/trace elements, but not light in this system. I never direct feed, only the water with chromamax.
Light overexposure, tissue damage, and the lack of nutrition are the main problems with keeping Goniopora.
Yes they all oxidize rapidly if the composition of the waterquality remains out of balance for short periods of time(48-72 hrs), otherwise they handle excessive UV well.
This is why I asked how long you have had them for. It usually takes anywhere from 1day to 8months for the effects of excessive UV to show. If it doesn't noticeably affect them immediately, it can do it slowly over time. The tenuidens isn't as susceptible as other species.
Originally Posted by tonyx
Tenuidens pictured was bleached, now it thrives and is 3" from T5s actinic 03, with polished reflector, no lens barrier! 76-86`
That's good that it revived
. Judging from your photo, I thought the lighting looked about like 10k MH.Originally Posted by tonyx
The problem seems to be that people overlook simplicity, its not anything fancy....no skimmers, thriving fuge, good lighting, all usual supplements.
I will post a recent picture tonight and another in 6.
Tens of thousands of people have tried the "simplicity" method over the past decade or two, but very few have been "successful"; and those are usually the people with LARGE systems.
A 6 month pic would be good. With all the subtle changes that occur, it is difficult to do a comparison by memory.
Originally Posted by tonyx
Bleaching is oxidative damage but its not the problem with goni, its a combination of several factors. mineral/amino/nutrients-deficiency/excesses for starters. I know stokesi damages easy, it does yes.
They are exposed to drastic swings of ph/Ca/temp/trace elements, but not light in this system. I never direct feed, only the water with chromamax.
Light overexposure, tissue damage, and the lack of nutrition are the main problems with keeping Goniopora.
steveweast
Member
John Kelly said:
dejaco
Member
Some of the reading I have been doing on gonipora show pic's of it thriving in refugiums. In the wild it does usually occur deeper and in turbid waters. I have had mine for just over a month now andfollowing acrylic51's advice it seems to be thriving. One thing I have found from talking with other hobbyists is that those who are successfull with it say find a site in tank with flow but not mashing it about! Indirect and constant. Other than that I am told to forget it and enjoy it. Spot feeding, relocating within system, acclimating to light levels, and so on seem to do more harm than good. Also instead of additions to tank water I was told just keep up normal water changes and it's trace element requirements are therefore replenished.
Just a thought from what I read and hobbyist's I know.
Just a thought from what I read and hobbyist's I know.
john kelly
Member
steveweast said:
steveweast
Member
John, you are correct in my keeping the red variety....I believe it is G. stutchburyi.....but, I'm not completely sure. I've kept a purple and a green variety (not stoki) for several years in the past....but, I finally got around to selling them off. I just can't seem to part with my red one even though his taking up sooo much room is a problem that will only get worse.
So, in your experience, the different varieties of gonis receive their primary nutrition through different mechanisms ? I can see that as a possibilty. In your experience, are hobbists having a better track record with the red variety ? and...does it trouble you that many online retailers label the red variety as a hardy goni ?
I'm not so sure, however, that I agree with the idea that my tank size alone is the reason for my gonis' survival. I would think that there's no condition in my 850 gal tank that couldn't be replicated in a 55 gal tank....IMO, there really isn't a significant difference......where as, I can see a significant difference from a 55 gal tank and....let's say....a public aquarium of 10,000 gals.
So, in your experience, the different varieties of gonis receive their primary nutrition through different mechanisms ? I can see that as a possibilty. In your experience, are hobbists having a better track record with the red variety ? and...does it trouble you that many online retailers label the red variety as a hardy goni ?
I'm not so sure, however, that I agree with the idea that my tank size alone is the reason for my gonis' survival. I would think that there's no condition in my 850 gal tank that couldn't be replicated in a 55 gal tank....IMO, there really isn't a significant difference......where as, I can see a significant difference from a 55 gal tank and....let's say....a public aquarium of 10,000 gals.
tonyx
New Member
Hello, the yellow/green is 10 months now and the others are almost 2 years, can anyone identify the yellow or the middle lower? It is also lit with 6500K lending a 10000k look, all flourescent 9w/Gal, 50/50 each. Its bright, very but anything higher is a waste for this particular tank setup. I am quite surprised that a smaller/Nano setup can successfully do a great job with this large group of beautiful corals. The honest truth is I am just barely grasping why they are growing and thriving in such a small closed system, its a puzzler. Here is the pic last evening(look bottom), my snails need to get at the front, check back in 6 more. This system is quite dirty but low No3- or Po4+...
john kelly
Member
Originally Posted by steveweast
I just can't seem to part with my red one even though his taking up sooo much room is a problem that will only get worse.
You could frag it. I doubt it is stutchburyi, especially since it forms buds to drop; plus stutchburyi has a more laminar growth form. From the photos I've seen of yours, it is more hemispherical shaped.
Originally Posted by steveweast
So, in your experience, the different varieties of gonis receive their primary nutrition through different mechanisms ? I can see that as a possibilty. In your experience, are hobbists having a better track record with the red variety ? and...does it trouble you that many online retailers label the red variety as a hardy goni ?
As far as I can tell they all receive their primary nutrition through active feeding, but some just require more food than others. Actually, thinking of the feeding differences, the size differences, the stutchburyi species and the stokesi species.....I posted some ID images in this thread https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=252394
One of the images contains a size comparison of the stutchburyi to the stokesi. You can see why a larger polyped species would need more food.....it's just bigger, larger skeleton, more tissue etc...like a mouse vs. an elephant.
There are far fewer "red" goniopora that are seen in the hobby compared to the "green", but there seems to be a few more red ones that have made it past the 2 or 3 or 4 (or 5) year mark.
What really is bothersome is that vendors sell the "green" goniopora (usually stokesi or pendulus) as easy or moderate. Saltwaterfish has theirs listed as moderate
.
Originally Posted by steveweast
I'm not so sure, however, that I agree with the idea that my tank size alone is the reason for my gonis' survival. I would think that there's no condition in my 850 gal tank that couldn't be replicated in a 55 gal tank....IMO, there really isn't a significant difference......where as, I can see a significant difference from a 55 gal tank and....let's say....a public aquarium of 10,000 gals.
An 850g would just have a larger support system than anything smaller. Aside from that, I assume that the environment in your tank is very stable. I'm sure that stability alone has helped your goni, and will help any goni and probably any coral, to grow. If you look at how stony corals lay down their skeleton base, they need to be able to respire, inflate, and extend in order to do it. Goniopora are sensitive corals and if they are constantly being irritated by direct water flow, or clownfish wallowing in them, or excessive lighting, or from being moved around in the tank, or from being knocked off of the rockwork, etc...they aren't going to extend like they should. If they don't respire and extend, if they aren't "happy", then how are they going to receive any nutrition? Everything goes downhill from there.
I just can't seem to part with my red one even though his taking up sooo much room is a problem that will only get worse.
You could frag it
. I doubt it is stutchburyi, especially since it forms buds to drop; plus stutchburyi has a more laminar growth form. From the photos I've seen of yours, it is more hemispherical shaped.Originally Posted by steveweast
So, in your experience, the different varieties of gonis receive their primary nutrition through different mechanisms ? I can see that as a possibilty. In your experience, are hobbists having a better track record with the red variety ? and...does it trouble you that many online retailers label the red variety as a hardy goni ?
As far as I can tell they all receive their primary nutrition through active feeding, but some just require more food than others. Actually, thinking of the feeding differences, the size differences, the stutchburyi species and the stokesi species.....I posted some ID images in this thread https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=252394
One of the images contains a size comparison of the stutchburyi to the stokesi. You can see why a larger polyped species would need more food.....it's just bigger, larger skeleton, more tissue etc...like a mouse vs. an elephant.
There are far fewer "red" goniopora that are seen in the hobby compared to the "green", but there seems to be a few more red ones that have made it past the 2 or 3 or 4 (or 5) year mark.
What really is bothersome is that vendors sell the "green" goniopora (usually stokesi or pendulus) as easy or moderate. Saltwaterfish has theirs listed as moderate
Originally Posted by steveweast
I'm not so sure, however, that I agree with the idea that my tank size alone is the reason for my gonis' survival. I would think that there's no condition in my 850 gal tank that couldn't be replicated in a 55 gal tank....IMO, there really isn't a significant difference......where as, I can see a significant difference from a 55 gal tank and....let's say....a public aquarium of 10,000 gals.
An 850g would just have a larger support system than anything smaller. Aside from that, I assume that the environment in your tank is very stable. I'm sure that stability alone has helped your goni, and will help any goni and probably any coral, to grow. If you look at how stony corals lay down their skeleton base, they need to be able to respire, inflate, and extend in order to do it. Goniopora are sensitive corals and if they are constantly being irritated by direct water flow, or clownfish wallowing in them, or excessive lighting, or from being moved around in the tank, or from being knocked off of the rockwork, etc...they aren't going to extend like they should. If they don't respire and extend, if they aren't "happy", then how are they going to receive any nutrition? Everything goes downhill from there.
john kelly
Member
Originally Posted by tonyx
16.5 hour photoperiod on this setup, they expand with this length....better than 15 or less, strange finding to say the least again.
The longest period of light that most corals in the wild would see in a day would be 12hrs.
FWIW, it isn't the length of the photo period that damages the coral, it is the intensity of the light.
16.5 hour photoperiod on this setup, they expand with this length....better than 15 or less, strange finding to say the least again.
The longest period of light that most corals in the wild would see in a day would be 12hrs.
FWIW, it isn't the length of the photo period that damages the coral, it is the intensity of the light.
john kelly
Member
Originally Posted by bergamer
I kept my flowerpot alive with direct doses of iron. The problem was that it was taking a lot of iron to keep it alive and I was scared of any possible negative effects of dosing high levels of iron.
How long did it live?
I kept my flowerpot alive with direct doses of iron. The problem was that it was taking a lot of iron to keep it alive and I was scared of any possible negative effects of dosing high levels of iron.
How long did it live?
tonyx
New Member
Originally Posted by bergamer
I kept my flowerpot alive with direct doses of iron. The problem was that it was taking a lot of iron to keep it alive and I was scared of any possible negative effects of dosing high levels of iron.
iron is good yet impossible to keep at high levels in seawater, it precipitates and is used fast, try chelates daily moderately if you have Iron problems
I kept my flowerpot alive with direct doses of iron. The problem was that it was taking a lot of iron to keep it alive and I was scared of any possible negative effects of dosing high levels of iron.
iron is good yet impossible to keep at high levels in seawater, it precipitates and is used fast, try chelates daily moderately if you have Iron problems
tonyx
New Member
Originally Posted by John Kelly
The longest period of light that most corals in the wild would see in a day would be 12hrs.
FWIW, it isn't the length of the photo period that damages the coral, it is the intensity of the light.
yes usually 10 hours of good light on reefs in nature is common 12 hour photoperiods are equatorial/subtropical yet some corals are at temperate latitudes where photoperiods exceede 15 hour days or more..alveopora can be seen at 40+ degrees latitude off japanese islands for example...A. Japonica
The longest period of light that most corals in the wild would see in a day would be 12hrs.
FWIW, it isn't the length of the photo period that damages the coral, it is the intensity of the light.
yes usually 10 hours of good light on reefs in nature is common 12 hour photoperiods are equatorial/subtropical yet some corals are at temperate latitudes where photoperiods exceede 15 hour days or more..alveopora can be seen at 40+ degrees latitude off japanese islands for example...A. Japonica