The Cycle Story...

[pokke]

What should I expect?
Being new to SW, I have been reading hard for the past 2 or 3 months. I finally setup my tank about 3 weeks ago and have some livestock in for cycle. I'm looking for some opinions and advice.
Gear is as follows:
135 Oceanic tank
2 - Emperor 400's
1 - Protein skimmer (DIY that came with the used tank. I will replace soon)
300W heater
2 - extra Zoo Med 160 gal/hr powerheads for circulation
80 lbs of Florida crushed coral with aragonite (2 inches or so)
40 lbs of lava rock and ornamental stuff
4' twin fluorescent fixture with 1 - 50/50 bulb and one std bulb
Single 250W Metal Halide bulb
I filled the tank about a month ago and after several good vacum sessions ended up with milky water with PH at 8.2 and no chlorine detectable. I added Red Sea salt and brought the SG to 1.024. I was determined to not kill or mame a bunch of fish to cycle the tank and read an article about cycling with drops of ammonia. I did this for about 3 days, adding about a capful from a gallon jug per day. The LFS said that it was 'unnatural' and that I should be doing this with live animals so I gave in.
I added 6 Mollies, of which, only 2 survived the night (power heads without the proper inlet protection are vicious predators. I picked up 6 more Mollies over the next couple of days and corrected the powerhead inlet.
After a week or so, I was down to 3 Mollies that did very well in the saltwater. After talking to the LFS, they convinced me to buy some Damsels to really do this the "right way". I bought 2 Blue Devils and 2 Yellow Damsels. I have had all 7 of these fish in the tank since and all seem to be doing well.
A friend called to see if he could get his taxes done and showed up with a smile on his face and 3 bags with some excellent looking Yellow Tangs, each about 4 inches long, tip to tail. I was very reluctant to introduce these fish to the tank during cycle, but he said they could go back to the LFS and that they'd be just fine in a tank that's 3 weeks along in the cycle.
We acclimated the Yellows over about 2 hours time (being overly paranoid?) and they all huddled in a corner with their lateral stripes as white as can be. They wouldn't eat for 2 days, but began exploring the tank. They've been in the tank now for about a week and are doing very well. They eat constantly and have excellent color and are quite lively. One seems to be establishing himself as the King of the Tank and chases the others around a bit, but not too much.
My tank parameters are as follows ( I really hate the Seachem test kit I got and will be replacing it soon):
Ammonia - in the blue and dropping
Nitrite - light pink and climbing
Nitrate - darker pink than Nitrite
I'm curious to see what feedback folks have for me and what I might expect over the next few weeks as the tank cycles in. I do have a few questions if anyone cares to answer...
1. I do get some food debris on the bottom. Should I be vacuming the tank?
2. Are water changes in order?
3. When might I expect to see algae forming? ( the critters do pick at the rocks and the lines in the tank as if feeding )
4. When could I put in some snails and/or some hermit crabs?
5. Any opinion on the packages from Saltwaterfish.com? I'm eyeballing the Big 20 package.
Thanks much in advance for your replies!

 

[saltmarsea]

...as I've been told & learned, when you have livestock that you don't want to lose it's necessary to make the water changes to dilute any of the toxic levels of H3/No2/No3 in the water. Of course throughout the cycle process the H3(ammonia) goes up and so does the No2 (Nitrites) and No3(Nitrates) but you Need those things to happen to establish the biological filter. But the higher the H3 & No2 the more harmful for the fish, but nitrates are beneficial but at a certain level is harmful also, but you NEED them to establish the cycle. When H3 goes down, No2 goes up, then you should be on your way to Good No3 and at the last stages of the cycle!! Now, also, I understand your test kit gives you colors (maybe it has numbers listed underneath it, or on the inside of the box) It also should give you Numbers per mg/l too? Might be best to get a better test kit with such a large tank and such a precious cargo? I know because I first started with the "colors" as well and my sis (the pro) said..No MarSea....you need the amounts to adjust it right! Hope something I said HELPED!!! One Newbie to another yeah know....
NOW TELL ME GUYS...DID I DO OKAY HERE?? Was I at all accurate?? Might I move up on the ladder past a Peppermint Shrimp someday!!?? Gaining Knowledge everyday! Thanks to reading and to the boards (and my sis of course)...Marci

 

[saltmarsea]

forgot to mention, Cycling with Ammonia does seem unnatural and you don't want to do that with Fish now! I did it with Damsels & added Cycle....I got impatient and used a raw shrimp and BOY that did some H3 & No2 spiking for me..so then I removed the raw shrimp and then to top it off, I took a dirty (yet free of disease) filter pad from my sisters tank and within 2 days everything leveled out Pefect!! Zero, Zero, & Zero across the boards....made me very happy! I think THe pad was the Key to success...and PATIENCE....afterall I waited a Month, then screwed it up by adding too much too soon and had Bilogical overload! LOL, HERE WE GO AGAIN! Got my fish to safety(Qt Tank) and doing the second cycle again! ~Marci

 

[col]

Pokke
In my opinion you started off the right way then have been given some bad advice. No fish need to die to start off a cycle, ammonia was fine or a few raw shrimp is another option
How many fish have you got in the tank at this moment in time?
Did you empty the tank and start again after adding 3 cupfulls of ammonia to the water?
I would get advice from this board befroe I would listen to LFS - they are in it for the money.

 

[pokke]

Running fine with 3 Yellow Tangs, 2 Mollies and 4 Damsels. I'm checking the water quality every other day and charting the progress. I did not change water or start over, so I'm about a month into the cycle. The most dramatic changes came when I added the Tangs, but this makes sense since the other fish were small and the numbers were low.
I'm not in a huge hurry to rush the cycle, but I do worry about the health of the fish. If I haven't had my Nitrite spike yet (I don't think its gone that far) then I suspect it'll be rough on the inhabitants.
Thanks for the replies!

 

[bdkdave]

Col: Read carefully... there's quite a difference in cUpfull and the cApfull that Pokke referred to!

 

[pokke]

I saw that, but assumed capful like you said... I sometimes forget that others might be reading these posts!
I'm too far along to start over again (at least I don't want to) and the cycle is in progress. I just want to minimize the stress on the fish.
Should I be doing water changes??

 

[col]

oopss sorry yer right!! Must be snowblind (been snowing in England today).
If you are worried about the health of your fish get them out of the tank, especially the tangs. They are a beautiful fish and do not deserve to be put in a cycling tank.
Damsels however, seem to be better equipped to withstand a cycle.
I have cycled 2 tanks without using fish, but household ammonia like you started off doing.

 

[rogeta]

Don't have much to add but a quick chemical change. Ammonia is NH3. Good Day all!

 

[maroonclownfan]

I expect you are going to have some more dead fish on your hands....I sure hope I am wrong though.
Adding 3 medium tangs to a cycling tank is not common practice, especially if you have not had your nitrite spike yet!!
Oh boy, nitrites are lethal to fish, they can take SOME ammonia, but are very sensative to nitrites.
I don't really know what to say....except bad advice was given to you by the LFS. Tangs are very prone to disease (ick, HLLE), I just don't really know what you can expect for sure, but I don't have high hopes.
Was the whole setup used??? Or just the tank??
Let us know how it goes......good luck.....MCF

 

[pokke]

It was a used setup and set idle for several years. I got the tank, glass tops, stand, metal halide ballast and mogul bases (old ones), the DIY skimmer all for $350 so I think I did alright on the preliminary.
I noticed last night that one of the Tangs has a brown spot on one side about the size of it's eye and positioned behind it's eye. I'm afraid that's not a good sign. Thoughts?
Should I be looking for a hospital tank for a few weeks or is it too late for the tangs? The other 2 look really good. All are feeding well and move around alot.
I know the tangs weren't too expensive (heh, free for me), but I'd rather not kill fish if I can help it. The damsels are like mini-tanks and just blaze around the tank like everything is just perfect.

 

[maroonclownfan]

So all the rock and sand were added by you???
I thought maybe if the whole tank had been up and running when you got it, you might be ok. But if you started from basically scratch, then I am going with my first expectations.
One of the most common ailments I have seen in tangs, yellow quite often, is HLLE (Head and Lateral Line Erosion) it is treatable but not in a cycling tank, IMO. They need perfect water parameters and plenty of nutritious food. i.e. vegetables, algae, etc....most preferrably soaked in garlic to aid in recovery.
Now, this is what I would do, if it were my tank. JMO mind you. I figure you have 2 options.
1) I would move them to a Quarantine/hospital tank, however, with 3 - 4" yellow tangs it will need to be somewhat large as not to stress them out. Maybe a 55 gallon with no substrate and just enough decoration to give them something to hide behind. I have seen plastic flower pots used as a good method or PVC pipe.
2) Keep a close eye on the water parameters, feed the tangs nori (dried macro algae sheets) soaked in garlic, cross my fingers, and say my prayers. Even water changes will just dilute the chemicals and extend the cylce out longer.
IMO, go with #1 if possible. You will need some filtration on the hospital tank though. do a search in the "disease & treatment" forum for the best ideas.
Good luck to you friend.......MCF

 

[pokke]

Well, if it were perfect from start to finish, it would be called science, not a hobby!
I'll see what I can do for the tangs over the next few days. I may see about moving them to a buddy's tank for awhile of even beg the LFS to host them for a month.
Here's a pic of the tank if anyone cares to look.
Tank

 

[candy618]

Could you help me get started? I am new at this and I dont know what I need to do to get started. I have a 55 gallon tank and I dont know how to get started.

 

[maroonclownfan]

I am not trying to rain on your parade...just trying to give some advice, which you did ask people for. Take it for what you will. No one can make you do anything.
By the way, your tank is beautiful, it is something to be proud of, I am just trying to help you keep it that way! Not trying to criticize you, but if nobody tells you, how will you ever know.
I am no 'expert' I don't claim to be one. I learn something new everyday about this hobby. And try to pass the good things on as best I can.
I just don't want to see you have a bad experience the first time around and quit. You have a great tank with the potential to be spectacular.
Good luck..........MCF

 

[pokke]

DOH!
Didn't mean to say anything bad MCF... I appreciate all your input!!!
Poor wording on my part. No offence intended for sure!
I just expect the ups and downs in a hobby and do what I can to limit the downs.
Thanks so much for everyone's input!

 

[maroonclownfan]

No offense taken.....I know this "hobby" can be stressful at times, but it all pays off when things are going good.
Keep us informed.......MCF
When your tank is ready your tangs will have luxurious place to call home.

 

[pokke]

OK, I could kick myself in the butt right about now...
Like I said, I've been using the Seachem test kit. I couldn't understand how the Ammonia levels could be in the "blue" or 6 - 10 ppm area and not be causing the fish issues. Well after some more research, I've read that the real measurement to be concerned with is the Free Ammonia levels! These have been 0 ppm for a week or better.
So, with that in mind and as of this post, my tank conditions are:
Free Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 2.5ppm dropping
Nitrates 20ppm climbing
The Nitrates should be on the down swing very soon and I'm hoping this will be a complete cycle in another week or 2.
Lesson learned - Always Check your references and READ, READ, READ