The Kids(and I)are depressed !!

[jr1053]

Had a die off of four damsels since setting up our first saltwater tank.Got a 110G tank with about a 15G Wet-Dry filter set-up,Jebo canister filter,Jebo protein skimmer and other supplies around Father's Day. Used filtered water using a Moen distilled water setup we use for our own drinking water and added a good commercial brand of salt and dechlorinators.Used a substrate of marine sand and aquascaped with imitation(plastic) rock since it was planned as a fish only tank. Over several weeks added Biozyme bacteria (for saltwater) to cycle it through and had additionally a couple of large bubble wands and submerged pumps for aeration and circulation. All the parameters were right where I've read they should be with nondetectable ammonia,nitrite, and nitrate; a ph of 8.2; and a SG of 1.021. Only clear problem was that the sump return pump was over heating the tank's water which remained a steady 82 degrees day in and day out. Since everthing seemed to be ok the folks at our LFS said to give it a run through with a few hardy fish. Bought 4 damsels and a percula clown and acclimated them over 3 hours with the slow drip method recommeded on this site. They seemed very healthy initially, were very active and fed well but after 3 days all appeared listless, went into hiding and stopped feeding. Testing all the above parameters showed that nothing had changed that I could see or test for.Found the damsels dead in the tank over the past two days and the girls were pretty upset since they had already bonded with them and had "named" all of them. Strangely the clownfish this evening reappeared seemed very active again and fed hungrily. I had been keeping a 40 gallon freshwater community tank and using the same water source for over 12 years and never had a die off such as this come on so suddenly. Any help in trying to correct this family setback would be appreciated. Thanks again.
John

 

[shiby1510]

Well the main thing that arose my attention was your salt levels... it is way too low! You should keep your levels at about 1.024... Also those fish I'm sure as you know are very territorial and could have been another problem.. I would have to say that most people would probably agree that sooner or later you will be happy about the damsels... they get very annoying in the long run because of their agressiveness..
Just a tip... When you increase your salt level do it very VERY slowly sudden spikes will cause a disaster... mix all of your salt and water outside of the main tank too and then add... hope this helps a bit... I'm sure others will have more to add..
good luck

 

[mr_bill]

Do you know of any dead spots in your tank? By this I mean holes where there might be NO water circulation, I can test my water in the first 12" of depth and have absolute perfect readings but deep down where the fish sleep in the cracks and holes in rock the readings can change alot. By moving my rock just a tad and adding one power head you can get a really nice flow of current and eliminate this type of problem. Hope that helps, I'm new too. Good luck!

 

[dmitry]

Yeah, the salt level jumped out at me as well! The temperature doesn't sound so awful and since it was steady I doubt it had anything to do with the demise of the fish.
Also, you might want to consider getting real live rock instead of plastic even though you don't plan to have any corals. The live rock acts as the primary biological filter in the tank!! Just make sure it is fully cured since you already have an inhabitant in the tank.

 

[cardsfan16]

Sorry to hear about your losses! Two things that stand out a little (to my fairly untrained eye).
1. 1.021 is really on the low side of the scale. It's always better to err on the higher side and keep it around 1.025ish.
2. Some might say 82 is a touch on the high side (I wouldn't), but if the temp is steady it really shouldn't have been a problem.
Only other thing I might suggest is that adding 5 fish at once, even in a 110 tank is something alot of people would advise against. It sounds like it didn't upset your parameters, but it is typically best to do one or a pair at a time.
Also, do you have any idea how long your LFS had the damsels prior to you purchasing them? If they were fresh deliveries and just went through one big move prior to you taking them home they may have just been too stressed. Might explain why the clown is doing alright.

 

[shiby1510]

Originally Posted by Mr_Bill
Do you know of any dead spots in your tank? By this I mean holes where there might be NO water circulation, I can test my water in the first 12" of depth and have absolute perfect readings but deep down where the fish sleep in the cracks and holes in rock the readings can change alot. By moving my rock just a tad and adding one power head you can get a really nice flow of current and eliminate this type of problem. Hope that helps, I'm new too. Good luck!

mr bill are you saying that the fish died because of dead spots in the tank?

 

[mr_bill]

Originally Posted by shiby1510
mr bill are you saying that the fish died because of dead spots in the tank?
Well, I for one had a circulation problem before I reached way down into my tank to take a water sample and found a nasty littly spot that would definetly harm if not kill a fish. I noticed every morning when I would first turn on the tank one of the damsels I had wasn't looking so hot but after an hour he would perk right up. Saw that 2 mornings in a row before my LFS tested my water and then told me to check the circulation.

 

[teresaq1]

What jumps out at me, is the bubble wands. ????? i would take those out, and add a couple more power heads. you should have two to four for circulation. also, do you have anything breaking the surface of the water.??
what are your water readings?
ammonia, nitrates nitrites, ph???

 

[ophiura]

The specific gravity is NOT FATAL TO FISH and is a common level used in FO systems.
Agree....Bubble wands --> not used in saltwater tanks. I would remove them.
Also agree on whether you have surface aggitation from the return pump or something.
Do you have live rock?
What test kits do you use? Have you had the reading verified at an LFS?

 

[darth tang]

It isn't the salt level. You treat ick with really low salt levels and thios doesn't kill fish. Many fish only tanks run at levels as low as 1.014-1.017. The salt level is only needed to be higher if you have a reef or any inverts.
5 fish at once is a lot to add to a bioload initially. I am willing to bet this is what did it. It sounds like it to me as I have done this before and the fish acted the same way. Or you may not have enough CO2/O2 transference on the water's surface. Make sure you have a decent ripple action on the surface of your water.
BUT I WOULD NOT CHANGE YOUR SALT LEVEL!

 

[jr1053]

Just took a minute out from work to check out the site and wanted to thank everyone for their helpful responses. I've been using both Jungle dip sticks and verified them with Master saltwater lab from Aquarium Pharm..As of this am all the values remain the same and the clown fish was still nicely active and fed well again. The surface agitation I have set up with the return from the sump pump produces a great deal of turbulance for good gas exchange. Not sure why I'm not to have bubble wands in the saltwater tank as they seem to really stir up good additional currents. There are no dead areas in the tank that I can figure out and I think I've been very careful about trying to maximize this circulation so far. Was thinking about doing about a 10 gallon water change this evening with water I've been aging.Was hoping that the salinty was the problem but I agree that it sounds like it probably isn't the primary cause of my troubles. Oh well at least the kids will see that their "clowny" is still alive ,and hopefully, well.
John

 

[ophiura]

Bubble wands introduce microbubbles which are undesired in most saltwater tanks. In addition, they tend to promote excess salt creep, also undesired.

 

[mr_bill]

Doh, I must have been up too late last night when I read this the first time. It looks as though you just started the tank, with no live rock or live sand so you did not cycle the tank at all before adding the fish.
Your levels all read great before adding fish because there was no cycle(Nitrogen cycle) or even a beginning of one since you have nothing in the tank to start it. Your LFS advised you, basically to cycle your tank by killing the fish they sold you which would produce the amonia needed to start off your cycle. I would look around to find another shop that cares a tad more about the animals they sell, even if this is a standard bit of advice they tend to give you could have cycled the tank with non-cured live rock or a raw shrimp from the grocery store.
It's totally not your fault, alot of pet shops tell you these fish are hardy and can take it. Two damsels might have a chance by them selves, but it sure sounds to me like that shop wanted to start your cycle by using live fish.

 

[ophiura]

This is what I thought as well....but a bacterial culture was added to the tank. At first I figured this would be inadequate - it often is - but there are no signs of ammonia or nitrite with 2 test kits after several days of bioload. Whether that is going to happen, or was avoided is going to be the big question.

 

[jr1053]

Well, I completed the water change without incident and the clown fish remains out in the open, active and feeding great. Got rid of the bubble wands and will do routine maintenance for a couple of weeks before adding another fish. I'll continue to check the water parameters although on the surface they all appear stable and normal. Thanks again to all for your helpful comments.
John

 

[ophiura]

Are you planning on adding live rock to this tank at some point?

 

[jr1053]

Haven't learned enough about it to feel secure about adding live rock although everything I've read in various books I've bought indicate that there is no down side except the start up costs for us. Still at this point I'm questioning whether I have enough knowledge to keep any saltwater fish alive and healthy so I'm reluctant to take on more responsibilities. Also I'm having a devil of a time trying to properly adjust my no frills Jebo skimmer which I've learned is my most essential piece of marine equipment. Seems to be mismatched to the included pump since even at its' lowest settings it quickly fills up the collection cup with clean foam in about 10 minutes time and then starts to overflow back into the sump tank. Hopefully I'll figure all these problems out soon. The water values continue to remain in the desirable range and our clown fish seems to be alive and well. Tonight I've promised the little ladies that I'd take them to the Willy Wonka movie premier so fiddling with the skimmer will have to wait. Regards...
John

 

[ophiura]

Live rock works miracles in saltwater tanks and I highly recommend it. It not only provide biological fitlration and cool critters, but gives the fish a more realistic habitat as well as places to graze. This results in less stress and better health.
The only basic rule to remember with LR is to never add uncured rock (and rock that is shipped, or hasn't been at the LFS several weeks, is uncured) to an established tank. In an established tank, small amounts of cured LR can be added without much trouble.