Cold winter in FL kills many Burmese, and cranks up the debate on federal bans...
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/2...el-debate.html
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/2...el-debate.html
The Plight of the Burmese Python in the USA/FL Continues
- Thread starter beth
- Start date
aw2x3
Active Member
Awesome, for you to bring this up, Beth!
It's time for even those of us, that aren't snake keepers, to see what's going on...to see what the government is trying to do...cause God knows, it's snakes now, but it's gonna be other pets soon.
The HSUS and everyone pushing the ban has stated that the freezing temps won't keep them from pushing north. When they said that 9 out of the 10 radio tagged snakes died, I thought a 99% death ratio was pretty good.
They're saying that the snakes will learn to hibernate (the species is from Burma, so they don't hibernate). My first thoughts were "How many hundreds of generations and thousands of years, is it gonna take, before they "learn" to hibernate?"
The Python ban has already been shot down and the moment it was, HSUS and the government went back to the drawing boards, writing up new ways to get their ban.
Like I said before...non-reptile owners need to get involved with us. It's snakes now...soon, it's gonna be turtles, lizards, etc...and then, they're gonna move on to our fish. It's inevitable.
It's time for even those of us, that aren't snake keepers, to see what's going on...to see what the government is trying to do...cause God knows, it's snakes now, but it's gonna be other pets soon.
The HSUS and everyone pushing the ban has stated that the freezing temps won't keep them from pushing north. When they said that 9 out of the 10 radio tagged snakes died, I thought a 99% death ratio was pretty good.
They're saying that the snakes will learn to hibernate (the species is from Burma, so they don't hibernate). My first thoughts were "How many hundreds of generations and thousands of years, is it gonna take, before they "learn" to hibernate?"
The Python ban has already been shot down and the moment it was, HSUS and the government went back to the drawing boards, writing up new ways to get their ban.
Like I said before...non-reptile owners need to get involved with us. It's snakes now...soon, it's gonna be turtles, lizards, etc...and then, they're gonna move on to our fish. It's inevitable.
aquaknight
Active Member
Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/3254079
It's time for even those of us, that aren't snake keepers, to see what's going on...to see what the government is trying to do...cause God knows, it's snakes now, but it's gonna be other pets soon.......Like I said before...non-reptile owners need to get involved with us. It's snakes now...soon, it's gonna be turtles, lizards, etc...and then, they're gonna move on to our fish. It's inevitable.
This is also the problem to my solution. Where do we draw the line? For what animals/species? Lionfish in the Caribbean are perhaps just as equally a big of problem. As mentioned, it's very easy to ID and tag a python. We can't do that with lionfish.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254110
Just playing devil's advocate how long since it's been this cold in Florida?
From what I gather, every winter is 'cold enough' to kill some of the reptiles. Its just this particular winter was so cold for so long it severely reduced the populations. This is why the Iguana population have been limited to South Florida, and haven't expanded to the north much.
http:///forum/post/3254079
It's time for even those of us, that aren't snake keepers, to see what's going on...to see what the government is trying to do...cause God knows, it's snakes now, but it's gonna be other pets soon.......Like I said before...non-reptile owners need to get involved with us. It's snakes now...soon, it's gonna be turtles, lizards, etc...and then, they're gonna move on to our fish. It's inevitable.
This is also the problem to my solution. Where do we draw the line? For what animals/species? Lionfish in the Caribbean are perhaps just as equally a big of problem. As mentioned, it's very easy to ID and tag a python. We can't do that with lionfish.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254110
Just playing devil's advocate how long since it's been this cold in Florida?
From what I gather, every winter is 'cold enough' to kill some of the reptiles. Its just this particular winter was so cold for so long it severely reduced the populations. This is why the Iguana population have been limited to South Florida, and haven't expanded to the north much.
aquaknight
Active Member
There's the other thing;
Frank Mazzotti, a University of Florida wildlife ecologist who led an assessment of cold effects on pythons in the Everglades, said enough survived to ensure the Burmese wasn't going to disappear from the comfy, subtropical confines of South Florida -- despite cold snaps and intensive eradication efforts.
So now what? I fully understand banning pythons would, in theory, stop the additions of new pythons. But if "intensive eradication efforts" aren't currently enough, then there is no solution? Banning them would do nothing? As also noted in that article, they are out there spawning and reproducing. I can't honestly imagine more then say 1 or 2 pythons get dumped in there Everglades a day, if that. There just aren't that many irresponsible owners in South Florida.
Frank Mazzotti, a University of Florida wildlife ecologist who led an assessment of cold effects on pythons in the Everglades, said enough survived to ensure the Burmese wasn't going to disappear from the comfy, subtropical confines of South Florida -- despite cold snaps and intensive eradication efforts.
So now what? I fully understand banning pythons would, in theory, stop the additions of new pythons. But if "intensive eradication efforts" aren't currently enough, then there is no solution? Banning them would do nothing? As also noted in that article, they are out there spawning and reproducing. I can't honestly imagine more then say 1 or 2 pythons get dumped in there Everglades a day, if that. There just aren't that many irresponsible owners in South Florida.
It's snakes now...soon, it's gonna be turtles, lizards, etc...and then, they're gonna move on to our fish. It's inevitable.
I'm certain the goal is a ban on all reps, and then all exotic animals.....fish, coral, etc., will figure in to it. Snakes are a good starting point because everyone hates snakes.
Its ridiculous to think that these snakes could even survive in Northern Florida, let alone anywhere else further north.
I'm certain the goal is a ban on all reps, and then all exotic animals.....fish, coral, etc., will figure in to it. Snakes are a good starting point because everyone hates snakes.
Its ridiculous to think that these snakes could even survive in Northern Florida, let alone anywhere else further north.
aw2x3
Active Member
AquaKnight...the United States Assoc. of Reptile Keepers (USARK) and others have tried striking a deal...making it harder to get them as pets, mandatory microchips, etc. We, as a reptile community, have done pretty much everything we can and given every solution we can, but it's became nothing more than a smear campaign. Sen Nelson, from Florida, has been quoted as saying that in just a few short years, people in Detroit are gonna have to be on the lookout for wild Burmese Python, hunting their children and pets, in your backyard. It's rediculous.
It's not just HSUS and other affiliations that are fault. The sole responsibility falls on irresponsible owners...and some businesses.
They claim that the majority of the Everglades population came from people letting their pets go, which is absurd. I don't care if every python owner, in FL, released their snakes...it wouldn't add up to the numbers we're seeing (which honestly, aren't alot). The majority came from business and breeders, who's shops were hit during hurricane seasons...Andrew, especially.
They claim that the snakes will spread north, when it's a blatant lie. Anything under 60 degrees, for an extended period of time and Burms become sluggish and eventually die. When shipping snakes and it's below 60 degrees, you must ship with heating elements (heat packs, etc), to ensure the temp of the snake or they will die.
Burms couldn't thrive in near north/central Florida for any length of time. Could they make it in the summer?...absolutely. Once fall and winter hit, they're gonners. They've done climate studies, just to prove that fact...another instance which HSUS claims as lies.
This is a problem in Florida...no where else. It's a problem that needs to be addressed and handled, by Sen. Nelson, in Florida. Him and his campaign dropped the ball and now it's an all out smear campaign. They think the easy fix is going to be a nationwide ban. What they don't care about is it's going to be put a $3 billion a year industry, out of business. When Floridas unemployment rate quadruples, Sen. Nelson is gonna be in trouble.
Thankfully, every bill they've drafted has been shot down by responsible owners and legislation, trying to still protect our constitutional rights. Every time it's shot down, they run back to their little offices, change some wording and then put it through, as a new bill. Someday, they'll learn...hopefully.
It's not just HSUS and other affiliations that are fault. The sole responsibility falls on irresponsible owners...and some businesses.
They claim that the majority of the Everglades population came from people letting their pets go, which is absurd. I don't care if every python owner, in FL, released their snakes...it wouldn't add up to the numbers we're seeing (which honestly, aren't alot). The majority came from business and breeders, who's shops were hit during hurricane seasons...Andrew, especially.
They claim that the snakes will spread north, when it's a blatant lie. Anything under 60 degrees, for an extended period of time and Burms become sluggish and eventually die. When shipping snakes and it's below 60 degrees, you must ship with heating elements (heat packs, etc), to ensure the temp of the snake or they will die.
Burms couldn't thrive in near north/central Florida for any length of time. Could they make it in the summer?...absolutely. Once fall and winter hit, they're gonners. They've done climate studies, just to prove that fact...another instance which HSUS claims as lies.
This is a problem in Florida...no where else. It's a problem that needs to be addressed and handled, by Sen. Nelson, in Florida. Him and his campaign dropped the ball and now it's an all out smear campaign. They think the easy fix is going to be a nationwide ban. What they don't care about is it's going to be put a $3 billion a year industry, out of business. When Floridas unemployment rate quadruples, Sen. Nelson is gonna be in trouble.
Thankfully, every bill they've drafted has been shot down by responsible owners and legislation, trying to still protect our constitutional rights. Every time it's shot down, they run back to their little offices, change some wording and then put it through, as a new bill. Someday, they'll learn...hopefully.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/3254222
They claim that the majority of the Everglades population came from people letting their pets go, which is absurd. I don't care if every python owner, in FL, released their snakes...it wouldn't add up to the numbers we're seeing (which honestly, aren't alot). The majority came from business and breeders, who's shops were hit during hurricane seasons...Andrew, especially.
They claim that the snakes will spread north, when it's a blatant lie. Anything under 60 degrees, for an extended period of time and Burms become sluggish and eventually die. When shipping snakes and it's below 60 degrees, you must ship with heating elements (heat packs, etc), to ensure the temp of the snake or they will die.
Burms couldn't thrive in near north/central Florida for any length of time. Could they make it in the summer?...absolutely. Once fall and winter hit, they're gonners. They've done climate studies, just to prove that fact...another instance which HSUS claims as lies.
I hear there are a whole lot of wild parrots there now for the same reason, pet stores destroyed in the hurricane
One thing I think you are not considering is the ability of the reptiles ability to adapt over time. How long before they are able to survive along the gulf coast? Even if they are overstating the problem now it is something we need to deal with. Maybe they have done this already but why not allow people in the trade to go into the glades to capture the beasties? Good for the glades, good for the dealers, good for the government, good for the snakes.
http:///forum/post/3254222
They claim that the majority of the Everglades population came from people letting their pets go, which is absurd. I don't care if every python owner, in FL, released their snakes...it wouldn't add up to the numbers we're seeing (which honestly, aren't alot). The majority came from business and breeders, who's shops were hit during hurricane seasons...Andrew, especially.
They claim that the snakes will spread north, when it's a blatant lie. Anything under 60 degrees, for an extended period of time and Burms become sluggish and eventually die. When shipping snakes and it's below 60 degrees, you must ship with heating elements (heat packs, etc), to ensure the temp of the snake or they will die.
Burms couldn't thrive in near north/central Florida for any length of time. Could they make it in the summer?...absolutely. Once fall and winter hit, they're gonners. They've done climate studies, just to prove that fact...another instance which HSUS claims as lies.
I hear there are a whole lot of wild parrots there now for the same reason, pet stores destroyed in the hurricane
One thing I think you are not considering is the ability of the reptiles ability to adapt over time. How long before they are able to survive along the gulf coast? Even if they are overstating the problem now it is something we need to deal with. Maybe they have done this already but why not allow people in the trade to go into the glades to capture the beasties? Good for the glades, good for the dealers, good for the government, good for the snakes.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254229
You always have to look for the ulterior motive. You really think those pushing cap and trade give a crap about the environment? I am sure there is underlying motive behind this having nothing to do with big snakes.
What would that be, aside from preying on people's fears of snakes, or environmental issues? Have something in mind?
Right, require chipping of all snakes. I'm fine with that. And yes, the problem would be solved, at no expense to the taxpayer.
AK, as the article says, and Andy points out: If we can extrapolate from the chipped population that died (99%) of chipped snakes died, that leaves a very small percent that may be still alive. Actually, I've seen some TV coverage, and the so-called hunters can't find a damn snake!
While So. Fla experiences freezes infrequently, it is frequent enough in North Fla.....that is the do not pass zone for these tropical snakes. Right now, they have been able live in a sub-tropical climate, So. FLA; they can't live beyond that. Anyone who knows a tad about reps, snakes in particular, knows that they live in a very narrowly defined environment, and they don't have much ability to adapt beyond that narrow environment. They can not regulate their body temps, except by being in a very warm environment. A snake in a freeze zone, will die, and die fast. A dog in a freeze zone, will more likely than not survive well enough.
http:///forum/post/3254229
You always have to look for the ulterior motive. You really think those pushing cap and trade give a crap about the environment? I am sure there is underlying motive behind this having nothing to do with big snakes.
What would that be, aside from preying on people's fears of snakes, or environmental issues? Have something in mind?
Right, require chipping of all snakes. I'm fine with that. And yes, the problem would be solved, at no expense to the taxpayer.
AK, as the article says, and Andy points out: If we can extrapolate from the chipped population that died (99%) of chipped snakes died, that leaves a very small percent that may be still alive. Actually, I've seen some TV coverage, and the so-called hunters can't find a damn snake!
While So. Fla experiences freezes infrequently, it is frequent enough in North Fla.....that is the do not pass zone for these tropical snakes. Right now, they have been able live in a sub-tropical climate, So. FLA; they can't live beyond that. Anyone who knows a tad about reps, snakes in particular, knows that they live in a very narrowly defined environment, and they don't have much ability to adapt beyond that narrow environment. They can not regulate their body temps, except by being in a very warm environment. A snake in a freeze zone, will die, and die fast. A dog in a freeze zone, will more likely than not survive well enough.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3254234
What would that be, aside from preying on people's fears of snakes, or environmental issues? Have something in mind?
Right, require chipping of all snakes. I'm fine with that. And yes, the problem would be solved, at no expense to the taxpayer.
AK, as the article says, and Andy points out: If we can extrapolate from the chipped population that died (99%) of chipped snakes died, that leaves a very small percent that may be still alive. Actually, I've seen some TV coverage, and the so-called hunters can't find a damn snake!
While So. Fla experiences freezes infrequently, it is frequent enough in North Fla.....that is the do not pass zone for these tropical snakes. Right now, they have been able live in a sub-tropical climate, So. FLA; they can't live beyond that. Anyone who knows a tad about reps, snakes in particular, knows that they live in a very narrowly defined environment, and they don't have much ability to adapt beyond that narrow environment. They can not regulate their body temps, except by being in a very warm environment. A snake in a freeze zone, will die, and die fast. A dog in a freeze zone, will more likely than not survive well enough.
Usually following the money will give you an idea of the real motive. In this case who knows, it could be wacko animal rights groups who don't think we should keep any pets, it would get their foot in the door for other bans. Could be captive breeders who stand to get rich if imports were banned. Something beyond common sense is pushing this all out ban.
http:///forum/post/3254234
What would that be, aside from preying on people's fears of snakes, or environmental issues? Have something in mind?
Right, require chipping of all snakes. I'm fine with that. And yes, the problem would be solved, at no expense to the taxpayer.
AK, as the article says, and Andy points out: If we can extrapolate from the chipped population that died (99%) of chipped snakes died, that leaves a very small percent that may be still alive. Actually, I've seen some TV coverage, and the so-called hunters can't find a damn snake!
While So. Fla experiences freezes infrequently, it is frequent enough in North Fla.....that is the do not pass zone for these tropical snakes. Right now, they have been able live in a sub-tropical climate, So. FLA; they can't live beyond that. Anyone who knows a tad about reps, snakes in particular, knows that they live in a very narrowly defined environment, and they don't have much ability to adapt beyond that narrow environment. They can not regulate their body temps, except by being in a very warm environment. A snake in a freeze zone, will die, and die fast. A dog in a freeze zone, will more likely than not survive well enough.
Usually following the money will give you an idea of the real motive. In this case who knows, it could be wacko animal rights groups who don't think we should keep any pets, it would get their foot in the door for other bans. Could be captive breeders who stand to get rich if imports were banned. Something beyond common sense is pushing this all out ban.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254247
Usually following the money will give you an idea of the real motive. In this case who knows, it could be wacko animal rights groups who don't think we should keep any pets, it would get their foot in the door for other bans. Could be captive breeders who stand to get rich if imports were banned. Something beyond common sense is pushing this all out ban.
Yes, I think that is what we have been saying here in these topics about snakes. Only the wacko animal rights org is a major animal rights org in this country...and I'm not talking about PETA.
Also, while the snakes may adapt over time to cooler climate, we are talking thousands of years, not a few years. Reptiles in particular are keenly evolved for a specific type of environment and are not so adaptable to environments that fall out of that.
There are many exotic animals that have been let out in So. Fla--parrots, iguanas. The reps are the ones being hunted down and killed, however.
I wish they'd hunt down and kill all the feral chickens in Key West. Talk about nuisance and health risk...However, because these farm foul pests are a tourist trap novelty, the city has ridiculous ordinances protecting them.
http:///forum/post/3254247
Usually following the money will give you an idea of the real motive. In this case who knows, it could be wacko animal rights groups who don't think we should keep any pets, it would get their foot in the door for other bans. Could be captive breeders who stand to get rich if imports were banned. Something beyond common sense is pushing this all out ban.
Yes, I think that is what we have been saying here in these topics about snakes. Only the wacko animal rights org is a major animal rights org in this country...and I'm not talking about PETA.
Also, while the snakes may adapt over time to cooler climate, we are talking thousands of years, not a few years. Reptiles in particular are keenly evolved for a specific type of environment and are not so adaptable to environments that fall out of that.
There are many exotic animals that have been let out in So. Fla--parrots, iguanas. The reps are the ones being hunted down and killed, however.
I wish they'd hunt down and kill all the feral chickens in Key West. Talk about nuisance and health risk...However, because these farm foul pests are a tourist trap novelty, the city has ridiculous ordinances protecting them.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3254267
Yes, I think that is what we have been saying here in these topics about snakes. Only the wacko animal rights org is a major animal rights org in this country...and I'm not talking about PETA.
Also, while the snakes may adapt over time to cooler climate, we are talking thousands of years, not a few years. Reptiles in particular are keenly evolved for a specific type of environment and are not so adaptable to environments that fall out of that.
There are many exotic animals that have been let out in So. Fla--parrots, iguanas. The reps are the ones being hunted down and killed, however.
I wish they'd hunt down and kill all the feral chickens in Key West. Talk about nuisance and health risk...However, because these farm foul pests are a tourist trap novelty, the city has ridiculous ordinances protecting them.
Snakes already survive in the cooler climates of North Amreica, I don't think it's a stretch that the pythons could and will adapt rather quickly to survive the southern states and I am talking decades, not centuries.
As much as I detest the source this is an interesting article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_220193.html
http:///forum/post/3254267
Yes, I think that is what we have been saying here in these topics about snakes. Only the wacko animal rights org is a major animal rights org in this country...and I'm not talking about PETA.
Also, while the snakes may adapt over time to cooler climate, we are talking thousands of years, not a few years. Reptiles in particular are keenly evolved for a specific type of environment and are not so adaptable to environments that fall out of that.
There are many exotic animals that have been let out in So. Fla--parrots, iguanas. The reps are the ones being hunted down and killed, however.
I wish they'd hunt down and kill all the feral chickens in Key West. Talk about nuisance and health risk...However, because these farm foul pests are a tourist trap novelty, the city has ridiculous ordinances protecting them.
Snakes already survive in the cooler climates of North Amreica, I don't think it's a stretch that the pythons could and will adapt rather quickly to survive the southern states and I am talking decades, not centuries.
As much as I detest the source this is an interesting article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_220193.html
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3254267
I wish they'd hunt down and kill all the feral chickens in Key West. Talk about nuisance and health risk...However, because these farm foul pests are a tourist trap novelty, the city has ridiculous ordinances protecting them.
How do you expect the junior gang bangers to learn to walk with no chickens to watch.
Free range chicken is tastey, I'd be for grabbing a pellet gun and going shopping
http:///forum/post/3254267
I wish they'd hunt down and kill all the feral chickens in Key West. Talk about nuisance and health risk...However, because these farm foul pests are a tourist trap novelty, the city has ridiculous ordinances protecting them.
How do you expect the junior gang bangers to learn to walk with no chickens to watch.
Free range chicken is tastey, I'd be for grabbing a pellet gun and going shopping
speg
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254110
Just playing devil's advocate how long since it's been this cold in Florida?
I still say just chip them, problem solved.
It was very cold here this winter (cold for FL). We're having record temperatures all the time.. in fact we had another record low today. There was even light snow in some counties along the mid-west coast.
http:///forum/post/3254110
Just playing devil's advocate how long since it's been this cold in Florida?
I still say just chip them, problem solved.
It was very cold here this winter (cold for FL). We're having record temperatures all the time.. in fact we had another record low today. There was even light snow in some counties along the mid-west coast.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254289
Snakes already survive in the cooler climates of North Amreica, I don't think it's a stretch that the pythons could and will adapt rather quickly to survive the southern states and I am talking decades, not centuries.
As much as I detest the source this is an interesting article
Can a polar bear survive as a black bear in N. Florida? No. If all polar bears were placed in N. Fl....or anywhere in the lower 48 for that matter, all of them would did off. Snakes are native to different states, and that geographic environment....not all snakes are tropical as are the Burmese.
http:///forum/post/3254289
Snakes already survive in the cooler climates of North Amreica, I don't think it's a stretch that the pythons could and will adapt rather quickly to survive the southern states and I am talking decades, not centuries.
As much as I detest the source this is an interesting article
Can a polar bear survive as a black bear in N. Florida? No. If all polar bears were placed in N. Fl....or anywhere in the lower 48 for that matter, all of them would did off. Snakes are native to different states, and that geographic environment....not all snakes are tropical as are the Burmese.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254291
I'd be for grabbing a pellet gun and going shopping
You'd join the ranks of many who already do regardless of lamebrain local ordinances.
http:///forum/post/3254291
I'd be for grabbing a pellet gun and going shopping
You'd join the ranks of many who already do regardless of lamebrain local ordinances.
aw2x3
Active Member
I'm all for eradicating invasive species. Kill them all, but don't use scare tactics, to try an under handed nationwide ban.
Last year, Florida imposed a 7 month all out hunt, for Everglades Burms. They gave biologist, herpatologists, etc free roam to catch and kill any Burm hey found. They keep saying there are "hundreds of thousands" of Everglades Burms. Want to know how many snakes they found over the course of 10 months?...less than 20.
Someone mentioned something about the captive breeders making alot of money from the ban. They're the ones that'll be hurt the most. The ban states that you cannot transport any of the 9 large constrictors across state lines...that includes mail, which every major breeder uses, to ship their sales.
I'm all for a ban on importation. We have more than enough breeders to keep us collectors happy. No reason to keep taking animals out of the wild, when's it's so easy to captive breed the same thing.
I'm typing from my iPhone and it's a PITA lol.
I'll type more from home, or answer anyones questions, after I get home from work.
Last year, Florida imposed a 7 month all out hunt, for Everglades Burms. They gave biologist, herpatologists, etc free roam to catch and kill any Burm hey found. They keep saying there are "hundreds of thousands" of Everglades Burms. Want to know how many snakes they found over the course of 10 months?...less than 20.
Someone mentioned something about the captive breeders making alot of money from the ban. They're the ones that'll be hurt the most. The ban states that you cannot transport any of the 9 large constrictors across state lines...that includes mail, which every major breeder uses, to ship their sales.
I'm all for a ban on importation. We have more than enough breeders to keep us collectors happy. No reason to keep taking animals out of the wild, when's it's so easy to captive breed the same thing.
I'm typing from my iPhone and it's a PITA lol.
I'll type more from home, or answer anyones questions, after I get home from work.
browniebuck
Active Member
This guy was fished out of a lake in Canton Ohio (dead, unfortunately).
http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/canto...of-Meyers-Lake
http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/canto...of-Meyers-Lake
