the problem with Bio-fuel

stdreb27

Active Member
I'm not wanting to argue about the validity of global warming, but this article is very interesting when it comes to the use of bio-fuel and other such tom-foolery. And according to this author this guy is one of the bigger tree huggers in Great Britain.
Renowned Environmentalist Calls Biofuels ‘Crime Against Humanity’
By Noel Sheppard | November 6, 2007 - 19:49 ET
Another prestigious international figure spoke out against biofuels Tuesday actually calling their use and production a "crime against humanity."
Unfortunately, since this goes counter to solutions for manmade global warming espoused by folks like Al Gore, you likely didn't hear or read about it.
Though George Monbiot isn't a household name in the States, he is considered one of Britain's leading environmentalists, and is regularly quoted by warm-mongers to advance climate hysteria.
Yet, despite his irrational disdain for carbon dioxide, Monbiot has long campaigned against the use of biofuels, a position quite diametric to Gore and other noted American climate alarmists.
With that in mind, Tuesday's article in the British Guardian contained Monbiot's harshest criticisms to date for this supposedly eco-friendly source of energy that global warming obsessed media in America dare not share with the citizenry (emphasis added throughout):
It doesn't get madder than this. Swaziland is in the grip of a famine and receiving emergency food aid. Forty per cent of its people are facing acute food shortages. So what has the government decided to export? Biofuel made from one of its staple crops, cassava. The government has allocated several thousand hectares of farmland to ethanol production in the district of Lavumisa, which happens to be the place worst hit by drought. It would surely be quicker and more humane to refine the Swazi people and put them in our tanks.
Those familiar with Monbiot know that he has quite a flare for the dramatic:
The cost of rice has risen by 20% over the past year, maize by 50%, wheat by 100%. Biofuels aren't entirely to blame - by taking land out of food production they exacerbate the effects of bad harvests and rising demand - but almost all the major agencies are now warning against expansion. And almost all the major governments are ignoring them.
In reality, Monbiot's explanation for this ignorance - governments yielding to pressure from the automobile lobby and big business for example - has little relevance in America, and is really just your garden variety environmentalist delusion.
After all, our unfortunate love affair with ethanol is almost exclusively a legislative overreaction to rising oil and gas prices, and the errant belief that biofuel was the panacea. Now that global warming alarmism has taken center stage thanks to Hurricane Katrina and Nobel Laureate Al Gore, nobody in Congress would dare step onto the floor of the Senate or the House of Representatives admitting that this was all a huge mistake.
Similarly, in other parts of the developed world foolishly beholden to the Kyoto Protocol, governments that have sold their souls to biofuels as part of the carbon dioxide solution can't go back on this now for fear of looking incompetent to their constituents.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
As such, media are typically uncomfortable bringing this charade from outside the curtain, as it is far better to keep this cat in the bag if one wants to continue to use global warming as a political issue.
Yet, such conventions don't seem to govern Monbiot as he actually cited information about this biofuel canard that few who don't read NewsBusters are aware of:
If you count only the immediate carbon costs of planting and processing biofuels, they appear to reduce greenhouse gases. When you look at the total impacts, you find they cause more warming than petroleum.
A recent study by the Nobel laureate Paul Crutzen shows that the official estimates have ignored the contribution of nitrogen fertilisers. They generate a greenhouse gas - nitrous oxide - that is 296 times as powerful as CO2. These emissions alone ensure that ethanol from maize causes between 0.9 and 1.5 times as much warming as petrol, while rapeseed oil (the source of more than 80% of the world's biodiesel) generates 1-1.7 times the impact of diesel. This is before you account for the changes in land use.
A paper published in the journal Science three months ago suggests that protecting uncultivated land saves, over 30 years, between two and nine times the carbon emissions you might avoid by ploughing it and planting biofuels. Last year the research group LMC International estimated that if the British and European target of a 5% contribution from biofuels were to be adopted by the rest of the world, the global acreage of cultivated land would expand by 15%. That means the end of most tropical forests. It might also cause runaway climate change.
Imagine that: an environmentalist suggesting that the use of biofuels might cause runaway climate change. Not something you expect NBC to report during its "Green is Universal" campaign, is it?
Of course, NBC also wouldn't want its viewers to read Monbiot's startling conclusion:
If the governments promoting biofuels do not reverse their policies, the humanitarian impact will be greater than that of the Iraq war. Millions will be displaced, hundreds of millions more could go hungry. This crime against humanity is a complex one, but that neither lessens nor excuses it. If people starve because of biofuels, Ruth Kelly and her peers will have killed them. Like all such crimes, it is perpetrated by cowards, attacking the weak to avoid confronting the strong.
As amazing as it might seem, I largely agree with Monbiot's assessment; where we part company is in who are the cowards, who are the weak, and who are the strong.
—Noel Sheppard is an economist, business owner, and Associate Editor of NewsBusters.
 

mfp1016

Member
I argue this point constantly with global warming and environmentalist fanatics. People never consider the full-scale scheme of energy when taking into consideration these alternative fuels. Having worked directly with many of these green projects, I can tell you that all of them are useless.
 

nano reefer

Active Member
e-85 ethanol is half as efficient as gasoline. Meaning that 2 gallons of e-85 is equal to 1 gallon of gasoline (mileage). E-85 ethanol better be less than a dollar a gallon, or i will never buy one. I would get hydrogen though...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Nano Reefer
e-85 ethanol is half as efficient as gasoline. Meaning that 2 gallons of e-85 is equal to 1 gallon of gasoline (mileage). E-85 ethanol better be less than a dollar a gallon, or i will never buy one. I would get hydrogen though...
that is interesting, can you show me where you got your info?
 

mfp1016

Member
Who killed the eletric car has more political motives than Richard Nixon.....
Unfortunately, its still extremely difficult to produce any viable amount of hydrogen. Also, there are lots of issues when replacing our current infrastructure with one that can support hydrogen. Its just extremely difficult to work with. We can't even really make storage tanks that hold it very well.
Although I'm a very harsh critic of people hocking global warming, I firmly advocate conservationist mentalitiy.
Most of today's "green" fuels were actually developed in the 70's, but shelved since they were inefficient when compared to today's activity. Some of these may come to fruition but it is still EXTREMELY inprobable. Also let me add that I do not know where this whole oil company conspiracy theory stuff comes from, about how oil companies do this to this in order to sway these people, etcetera. Oil companies own an incredible number of smaller companies, patents, IP, so much so that no matter where the energy industry goes, these companies will already have a lion's share of the business.
Speaking from an engineering standpoint, and having worked on a lot of these projects, I fervently believe that we will not find a good alternative with a cousin-fuel (cousin meaning, methane, ethane, gas, all pretty much the same). I think reform will come in a truely alternative fuel, something we've never seen or even heard of before. Some eccentric scientist is out there coming up with some crazy thing, ala Doc Brown.
 

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by mfp1016
Speaking from an engineering standpoint, and having worked on a lot of these projects, I fervently believe that we will not find a good alternative with a cousin-fuel (cousin meaning, methane, ethane, gas, all pretty much the same). I think reform will come in a truely alternative fuel, something we've never seen or even heard of before. Some eccentric scientist is out there coming up with some crazy thing, ala Doc Brown.
I'm an engineer, and I agree with you completely on this.
I think wind and solar power are nice, but will never be a viable source of power for today's needs. Nuclear is really the only current option, but it's too dangerous and there isn't enough Uranium to support long-term use.
I also agree that the next alternative to oil is going to be something that we can't yet harness. I've got my bets on fusion power, but who knows.
 

choog

Member
Originally Posted by Nano Reefer
e-85 ethanol is half as efficient as gasoline. Meaning that 2 gallons of e-85 is equal to 1 gallon of gasoline (mileage). E-85 ethanol better be less than a dollar a gallon, or i will never buy one. I would get hydrogen though...

From what I have learned in my classes, Hydrogen is very expensive to produce. It must go through processing that is much more expensive than gas so it is unlikely that it will take off. I am not an expert. . . .just relaying inforamtion from our engineering department.
 

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by choog
From what I have learned in my classes, Hydrogen is very expensive to produce. It must go through processing that is much more expensive than gas so it is unlikely that it will take off. I am not an expert. . . .just relaying inforamtion from our engineering department.
Exactly. It's a very clean fuel, but to produce it, it takes more energy than it gives. Plus, the energy used to produce it probably comes from fossil fuel plants anyway.
I don't see hydrogen ever catching on.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by mfp1016
Also let me add that I do not know where this whole oil company conspiracy theory stuff comes from, about how oil companies do this to this in order to sway these people, etcetera. Oil companies own an incredible number of smaller companies, patents, IP, so much so that no matter where the energy industry goes, these companies will already have a lion's share of the business.
I KNOW! This whole notion that oil companies will only make money off oil is ludicrious.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darknes
Exactly. It's a very clean fuel, but to produce it, it takes more energy than it gives. Plus, the energy used to produce it probably comes from fossil fuel plants anyway.
I don't see hydrogen ever catching on.
If it were me I'd think that it may not be a different source of energy but a different means of making energy. Everything we have now is from making an explosion turning something. Steam, water, coal, nuclear turns something which in turn powers some generator or other power making aperatus. Oil turns into gas which by exploding it turns your crankshaft.
I think technology will have to change where we get power by something else.
 

mfp1016

Member
Like I said, TRUELY alternative. We use water for a lot of steam powered electric generationi devices due to its optimal phase diagram. Plus, we know a lot about water, mostly from empirical testing, but our theoretical theories about water hold well. I'd be interested in seeing new ways of capturing lost energy. For example, why do we not collect the energy transfered into freeways from cars. In Los Angeles, you'd be hard-pressed to find a freeway that doesn't have a decent number of cars at anytime. Why haven't we improved in piezo-electric devices and applied them to freeways? Why do we flush the toilet after going number 1? It takes a lot of energy to compress that water to make up for the vast majority of number 1 flushes. Although it is hard for us reefers to really say anything about the environment and energy consumption, considering the vast consumption of electricity required to run a reef tank. I believe there may be a future in energy amplification; taking energy from some source and amplifying it to a higher degree....
I don't know, I don't work directly with those projects anymore. I'd like to some some better ideas from the scientific community.
 

goingpoor

Member
Originally Posted by mfp1016
Who killed the eletric car has more political motives than Richard Nixon.....
Unfortunately, its still extremely difficult to produce any viable amount of hydrogen. Also, there are lots of issues when replacing our current infrastructure with one that can support hydrogen. Its just extremely difficult to work with. We can't even really make storage tanks that hold it very well.
Although I'm a very harsh critic of people hocking global warming, I firmly advocate conservationist mentalitiy.
Most of today's "green" fuels were actually developed in the 70's, but shelved since they were inefficient when compared to today's activity. Some of these may come to fruition but it is still EXTREMELY inprobable. Also let me add that I do not know where this whole oil company conspiracy theory stuff comes from, about how oil companies do this to this in order to sway these people, etcetera. Oil companies own an incredible number of smaller companies, patents, IP, so much so that no matter where the energy industry goes, these companies will already have a lion's share of the business.
Speaking from an engineering standpoint, and having worked on a lot of these projects, I fervently believe that we will not find a good alternative with a cousin-fuel (cousin meaning, methane, ethane, gas, all pretty much the same). I think reform will come in a truely alternative fuel, something we've never seen or even heard of before. Some eccentric scientist is out there coming up with some crazy thing, ala Doc Brown.

My grandfather told me one of his friends had a car in the 50's that he was testing for gm and it ran off of water ???????thats way before the 70's the goverment just dont give a f*ck about the enviroment ....Simply because there the ones making all the money with the gas prices the way they are!
 

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by goingpoor
My grandfather told me one of his friends had a car in the 50's that he was testing for gm and it ran off of water ???????thats way before the 70's the goverment just dont give a f*ck about the enviroment ....Simply because there the ones making all the money with the gas prices the way they are!
That's not true. If anything, it was probably a hydrogen car.
Heck, they had electric vehicles at the turn of the 20th century...they were just very slow and inefficient.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by goingpoor
My grandfather told me one of his friends had a car in the 50's that he was testing for gm and it ran off of water ???????thats way before the 70's the goverment just dont give a f*ck about the enviroment ....Simply because there the ones making all the money with the gas prices the way they are!
Gas taxes are flat taxes per gallon, not a percentage of price, and we don't have a nationalised oil company. So the price of oil wouldn't help the govt. If anything it would hurt them, think about how many cars, trucks, planes and tanks they have. They probably buy more oil than any other entity in the usa.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by mfp1016
Why do we flush the toilet after going number 1? It takes a lot of energy to compress that water to make up for the vast majority of number 1 flushes.
Because it stinks!!!!!! Especially after that morning
 

krj-1168

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by goingpoor
My grandfather told me one of his friends had a car in the 50's that he was testing for gm and it ran off of water ???????thats way before the 70's the goverment just dont give a f*ck about the enviroment ....Simply because there the ones making all the money with the gas prices the way they are!
That's not true. If anything, it was probably a hydrogen car.
Heck, they had electric vehicles at the turn of the 20th century...they were just very slow and inefficient.

Yeah - basically the Hydrogen fuel for hydrogen powered cars is from Water.
What gets me is that - people are say in takes more energy to break apart water molecules that it does to turn crude oil in to gasoline or diesel - are people crazy.
I've also heard that the technology is in the works to a car that can generate it's own fuel. Basically an Electric car that take Water and turn it into Hydrogen which will power the motor which will recharge the batteries.
Now that would be Awesome.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by krj-1168
Yeah - basically the Hydrogen fuel for hydrogen powered cars is from Water.
What gets me is that - people are say in takes more energy to break apart water molecules that it does to turn crude oil in to gasoline or diesel - are people crazy.
I've also heard that the technology is in the works to a car that can generate it's own fuel. Basically an Electric car that take Water and turn it into Hydrogen which will power the motor which will recharge the batteries.
Now that would be Awesome.
But what happens when we start using water to power everything, people are giong to be moaning about us depleting our oceans. Oh we are changing the salinity and killing our fragile environment. I swear tree huggers want us to live in the stone ages again.
 
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