The transfer method to treat ich and to do as a quarenteen.

[jonthefishguy]

Uh, I would just like to point out that MARINE BIOLOGISTS dont know crap about ocean fish in aquariums unless they do their own study or own one themselves. How fish handle captivity and what they do, eat/dont eat, who the get along with while in an aquarium, isnt what they study. They study the ocean as a whole. From the tiniest organism found to the largest mammal in the ocean. They study the affects of things as a whole. And first and foremost, reef keeping isnt a science. There isnt a definitave way to do things in this hobby. Thats why we all read many different books and click through forums looking for answers to what works and doesnt work. Why do we do this? Because it seems that all the books and forums we read from other aquarists all contradict each other in one way, shape, or form.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jonthefishguy
Uh, I would just like to point out that MARINE BIOLOGISTS dont know crap about ocean fish in aquariums unless they do their own study or own one themselves. .....
Is this comment regarding Fenner?

 

[jonthefishguy]

Obviously you didnt read the part where i said "unless they do their own study or own one themselves" since Bob bio reads: has lived the science, hobby and business of aquatics in the Philippines,
Japan and USA. He has worked as a collector
and in both the retail and wholesale side of the
marine aquatic field. He has been involved in
design, construction and maintenance of aquatic
systems. Bob’s academic background includes
two life science degrees and a teaching
certificate in chemistry, physics and biology
My statement was a generalization
So, to answer your question. No

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jonthefishguy
Obviously you didnt read the part where i said "unless they do their own study or own one themselves" since Bob bio reads: has lived the science, hobby and business of aquatics in the Philippines,
Japan and USA. He has worked as a collector
and in both the retail and wholesale side of the
marine aquatic field. He has been involved in
design, construction and maintenance of aquatic
systems. Bob’s academic background includes
two life science degrees and a teaching
certificate in chemistry, physics and biology
My statement was a generalization
So, to answer your question. No
Glad you clarifed, although every Marine Biologist on this thread I've seen mentioned seems to be an exception to your generalization.
Further, I would disagree with your premise a bit. Oceanographers study the oceans as a whole, Marine Biologists study the life in it. My degree (emphasis in Marine Biology) and minor in Chemistry did provide a basis for the biological system found in a reef tank.
Aquarium keeping is a science in my opinion. A new one that needs to be more fully explored. I wouldn't discount other scientific experience however in regards to it.
Frankly, in some instances we need more science in our hobby. There are a lot of myths promoted in our hobby about Ich for instance.

 

[jonthefishguy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Glad you clarifed, although every Marine Biologist on this thread I've seen mentioned seems to be an exception to your generalization.

Well, to clarify it even further, marine biologist with no interest in this hobby will not be hanging out in here either. which brings me back to my previous statement that "MARINE BIOLOGISTS dont know crap about ocean fish in aquariums unless they do their own study or own one themselves". This can go on and on and on, but my generalization still stands.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jonthefishguy
Well, to clarify it even further, marine biologist with no interest in this hobby will not be hanging out in here either. which brings me back to my previous statement that "MARINE BIOLOGISTS dont know crap about ocean fish in aquariums unless they do their own study or own one themselves". This can go on and on and on, but my generalization still stands.
jon ,I think you misread my intentions to asking about Fenner. I just wanted to clarify which marine biologists you were referring too, since Ophuira was mentioned, Fenner was mentioned, and a couple of authors by Beth were mentioned. I didn't want someone to come along and read this thread and question any of their credentials.
While I don't agree with everything Fenner promotes, and The Conscientious Aquarist is becoming a bit dated, I think he's a tremendous resource for new hobbyists.

 

[jonthefishguy]

gotchya

 

[renogaw]

lesley, how did this work out?

 

[lesleybird]

Sorry for the late reply. I forgot about this thread. Yes the transfer method worked well. I think that transfering between two large rubbermaids every two days with two powerheads with venturies and two heaters so that one can dry out between changes is an alternative to keeping a QT up and cycled....at least is is for me. I had a majestic angel that I had to keep this way for a month because my special order tank was late in comming and he is doing fine and is in the big 190 gallon now. I would say that one needs to put some cycle bacteria and ammo lock in the rubbermaid and remove any uneaten food with a fine fish net to keep the water quality up. Lesley

 

[lesleybird]

Hi, This new method works well for me. Treated fish with ich by transfering them between two 33 gallon rubbermaids using about 25 gallons of water each time for about 10 days and your ich is totally gone. I use two sets of power heads with venturies for oxygenation, two nice pvc pipes for the fish to hide two heaters and two thermomoters. The rubbermaids are rinsed and wiped out with a paper towel and allowed to dry as are the heater rinsed and wiped dry. The power head and the pvc I stick in a bucket with some hot tap water for a couple of minutes....not hot enough to damage it, but too hot to put your hand in from the tap. I let everything dry for at least a day inbetween transfers.
No medication is needed, no hypo, just making up regular saltwater for the water changes. To make sure the water does not spike amonia I put in 8 caps full of cycle bacteria and a standard dose of Ammo loc in with each change. The ich only lives on the fish for 3 to 7 days before it falls off to the substrate where it takes 3 days to 4 weeks to hatch into swimmers that can reinfect the fish. Transfering the fish removes the tomites I think they are called (have to check on the name) so the ich cannot reinfect and is gone after 10 days. Actually it was visably gone after three days but one has to make sure any unseen ich in the gills has fallen off. After 10 days one can put the fish into a holding tank while the main tank is fallow (fishless) for 4 or 5 weeks.
I have had people tell me this is too stressful on the fish but I have not had any problems with this. To catch the fish I usually take the pvc, heater, and powerhead out and catch the fish in a medium size plactic bucket. There are some that I catch with my hands as I don't like to net large angelfish as they nearly always get something caught in the net. I acclamate the fish in a bucket for about an hour of pouring some water from the new tub every ten minutes. I then catch them in the bucket gently with my hands and put them into the new rubbermaid trying not to put any of the old water into the new one. Did this and the ich it totally gone from the fish. I plan on doing this every time I get new fish to make sure that I do not introduce any ich into the system. I read where 60 percent of wild caught fish carry ich in small quanties like in their gills or some place one cannot see. If they are held in quarters with other fish the number of fish carring ich can be much higher. I think 10 days to two weeks is enough to see if new fish are having any disease problems. This way I do not have to keep a cycled quarenteen tank set up and cycled. Must make sure the ph and specific gravity and temperature match to avoid stressing the fish. I did this method with two clowns and two large angelfish (in seperate rubbermaids) without any problems. Lesley

 

[renogaw]

it IS listed as one of the three generally acceptable ways to cure ich IF DONE RIGHT. it won't though prevent diseases such as brooknella or other bacterial or fungal diseases getting into your tank if you don't QT before hand.
just FYI, every phd and marine biologist who does say the transfer method is acceptable says it is the WORST way of doing it because it completely stresses out the fish.

 

[lesleybird]

Originally Posted by renogaw
it IS listed as one of the three generally acceptable ways to cure ich IF DONE RIGHT. it won't though prevent diseases such as brooknella or other bacterial or fungal diseases getting into your tank if you don't QT before hand.
just FYI, every phd and marine biologist who does say the transfer method is acceptable says it is the WORST way of doing it because it completely stresses out the fish.
My fish sure did not look or act stressed. They had a light brown color rubbermaid (the most calming color I could find for the fish), and large pvc tunnels and eggcrate tops in case they wanted to jump. They continued to eat well and are still doing well now in my display tank. I keep the rubbermaids on the floor and a lot of the fish got used to my face while I sit on the floor and watch them. They got quite tame to me. I do not say that it treats bacterial or fungal disease or brooknella but one can see if any of these diseases are there during the ten days and one can easily treat with medications in a rubbermaid.
When one talks about stressing out the fish I would say that hypo can stress out the fish because a lot of people cannot keep the ph at the right levels while doing hypo. And hypo needs to be done exactly or it will not kill all of the ich. I read about a lot of people doing hypo in a tank that is barely cycled. Talk about stress. Ich medications like copper really stress the fish out and can do liver damage. If one does the transfer method using high quality water for the exchanges and feeds lightly to avoid over polution of the water the fish are fine. Really, all my fish did very well the way I did it. I do not net them but I am very patient and gentle when I catch them in my hands from the bucket to place them into the new rubbermaid. The amonia and nitrite levels stayed at zero during the transfer method. I did use a fine net daily to remove any uneaten food or waste from the rubbermaid and rinsed the net with hot water and let it dry out.
Lesley

 

[lesleybird]

Hi, Just to clarify I change the fish to another tub every two days. I try to change them over every 48 to 60 hours so the ich that falls off the fish does not have a chance to hatch and reinfect the fish. Lesley

 

[1journeyman]

I combined the threads as they were both on first page.

 

[AlexWilson]

I would like to suggest an alternate version of the Transfer Method (Transfer Method II if I may) to eradicate Cryptocaryon irritans from new arrivals that I've had success with, in which sterilization and ammonia levels aren't a concern nor is there a large amount of water wasted. In this method instead of two buckets or aquariums you simply use 5 permanent small quarantine aquariums where you transfer every 3 days. You then start over and reuse them without contamination concerns after 2 and half months or 75 days:

Start 5 small quarantine aquariums with a small amount of inert gravel using cycled water from an established Cryptocaryon free system and then wait a week to cycle or simply add freshly mixed water and wait a month to cycle. One air pump can be used with valves to run all five.

- Day 1 - Place your fish in the first quarantine aquarium.
- Day 4 - After 72 hours transfer your fish from the first to the second quarantine aquarium with a net or other small clear drain container to transfer as little water as possible with the fish. This is easier to do at at night when the fish are asleep and sluggish.
- Day 7 - Repeat transfer to the third quarantine aquarium.
- Day 10 - Repeat transfer to the fourth quarantine aquarium.
- Day 13 - Repeat transfer to the fifth quarantine aquarium. Optionally treat for 24 hours with Prazipro for worms on the last day.
- Day 16 - Transfer to larger quarantine system (for further observation and treatment of other diseases) or optionally transfer directly to your main display aquarium.
- Day 76 - After 75 days you can safely start over again with new fish using the same water.

- There is a very small chance of transfer of a Tomont or Protomont in this process (with the water and on the fish) yet not to worry that's why you have a series of transfers over time. The whole idea is to leave the parasites behind and thus just in case transfer as little water as possible on each transfer to avoid any possible free swimming Theront, however, you don't need to expose your fish to air if you don't want to. You can simply transfer them over in a clear container with just enough water for them to be submersed under. At each transfer transmission become less likely by the fourth transfer it's should be gone. I added a fifth transfer just to make sure.

- You can optionally treat the water with Seachem’s ParaGuard or similar to prevent a wide rage of diseases during the whole process of 15 days. It has a mix of aldehydes, malachite green, and other proprietary fish protective polymers to fight against ectoparasites including Cryptocaryon irritans, external fungal, bacterial and viral lesions including fin rot, this according the manufacturer.
- Optionally treat for 24 hours with Prazipro for worms on the last day.
- The aquarium size used depends on how big and how many fish you have.
- Here is one example using one gallon clear plastic boxes ($0.98) at HomeDepot. I used a soldering iron to melt a small hole for airline tubing and I've had very little salt creep with these. I use these with a maximum of two small fish at a time.

See Transfer Method
http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html
http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[beth]

I might agree until I actually saw what you are using for isolation tanks. WO viable QT(s) that will keep fish relatively stress free, which can't occur in those containers, then this can't really work. And what are your stats of success?

 

[AlexWilson]

Hello, those one gallon containers work just fine for up to two small 1" fish. Another good size are 10 gallon aquariums and you can go as big as required. I've traditionally used five 10 gallon aquariums for fish up to about 5". I've had 100 percent success with this over the last 10 years with about 30 new arrivals and 8 in an advanced Cryptocaryon infefection stage.

I invite everyone to try it as well to see for yourself.
Regards

 

[beth]

There is absolutely no filtration in those containers and no real aeration either using airstones.

 

[AlexWilson]

One last note on the Transfer Method II would be to make sure you appropriately acclimate your fish when going from the last quarantine aquarium to your main display or to your main quarantine, where temperature and salinity might be different. Thus keep in mind the five quarantine aquariums should be exactly the same set up and original source water to have the same parameters.