This is sad!

[melbournefl]

I too have a mounted big-mouth bass on my wall, my kids like it though cuz it sings stupid songs when they walk by
Later, Paul

 

[jonthefb]

Now this is a quality topic! Adrian and broomer you both made excellent and vaild points. Adrian, i was just stating that the chinese use seahorses in a, well, odd, (at least to u shere in the U.S.) manner, although it has been their custom to do so for many hundresds of years. Heck the greek and romans noted the medicinal qualities. Pliny the elder claimed that seahorses could cure rabies. Chinese and phillipene medicine does not revolve around the idea of causation, as western medicine does. Teh medicine of these people revolves around the idea of yin and yag, and that equilibrium can be restored through medication rest and excercise. And broomer, you are tottally correct in the carrying capacity idea (heck most of us are not even this wise and continue to stock our tanks to their limits until something dies when we add something new), and i also agree with you that only the bold majestic animals, are really focused on for conservation here in the states. To tell you the truth i had no idea that seahorsed were endangered until i got into this hobby and did some research into setting up a species specific seahorse tank. Then i stumbled upon the work of Dr. Amanda C.J. Vincent. Dr. Vincent has been working for about ten years now on Project Seahorse. A program designed to educate the native islanders of the phillipines, monitor seahorse fisheries, adn promote captive propagation. Captive propagation and animal and coral husbandry, as i see it will become a huge business in the future. I think that we as humans are so removed from the things that we purchase, that we dont care, or just dont know where things come from. Studying to become a science teacher, i was in a classroom last semester observing the teacher, and she asked one fo her second graders where hamburger comes from and one little boy instinctively replied, "the grocery store". We as freedom lovign americans, have no idea where the majority of the stuff that we purchase comes from. I think that adrians suggestion of hunting with

[hr]
and rocks, though humorous, is entirely correct. it used to be that we would co-exist with mother nature, now we simply rule over it. Our reef tanks are great examples of this. We are trying to recreate the ocean, and all of its elements, current, temp, light, salinity, in an area that is is many times smaller than our bathtubs. The progress of science has bought us this far, and i think that it is the progress of science that will also allow us as humans to now return the favor to mother nature, by releiving her of teh burden that we have placed on her for so long now. This is what the carrying capacity idea in wildlife management is doind, adn this is what fish and coral husbandry will do for the ocean. We will no longer have to pay indonesians pennys on the dollar to have them dive with cyanide to catch fish. We will be able to employ them as feeders, or embryo developers, in a building located close to the ocean that supplies aquarists and mother nature herself with a replenishable source of fish and invertebrates, so that reefs and estuaries, and chinese medicine can continue, and so that we can continue to view these splendors from our homes, and that we can continue to be ignorant!

thanks all for this wonderful topic
keep it up!
jon

 

[overanalyzer]

OK a couple of points:
Hunt with rock or knives?? Sure and deer would be roaming most urban areas ..... I am not for that - I know people who have been killed by deer running in front of their cars or the car in front of them. This goes back to Broomer's point on natural resource management - if we carefully manage our resources we can live in balance. Native Americans did this for centuries before the first settlers came.
Had no clue the sea horse was endangered until about two days ago ....
Adrian's point about keeping a reef tank being similar to harvesting these seahorses is not quite parallel. While most reefers I know try to simulate the environment and care for these critters as if they were family members. The keeping of an aquarium is to show case a window into the natural world - not to turn a profit.
Lastly - what should be done about preservation?? That is what we are all after here - preservation of these critters in their natural environment and safe harvesting for our tanks. So how about putting out some info like:
How to recognize fish/inverts that are harvested in a poor manner?
How do we recognize dealers who are less than scrupulous?
How do we know that on-line dealers are not using harmful means to harvest rock/sand/fish/inverts/corrals?
Just my $0.02 worth

 

[adrian]

The only point I was trying to make is that in each case the animals are being removed from their natural habitat for our pleasure, you cant argue with that. In some instances the animals are wasted, in some they are put to good use. None of you can say you hunt because you have no other means of getting food. Of course deer are going to cross the road and we are going to hit them with our cars, why, because weve built roads right through their natural hibitat, its not their fault, I know quite a few people myself that have hit deer, and its not pretty. It would be nice if our own populations could learn to limit themselves, so other animals dont have to limit theirs for our sake. jonthefb said it best, " it used to be that we would co-exist with mother nature, now we simply rule over it." Another point is there might not be so many deer if we hadnt hunted their natural predators so much, like the mountain lion, coyote, ect. Believe me nature knows how to create equilibrium, and our help is not needed, that is until we hunt a certain species too much, or we industrialize their habitat leaving them with less room to roam and populate, then they get in our way and we have to "control" them. The American buffalo is a good example. The native americans hunted for food, to survive, they ate the meat, used the bones to make tools, and the skin for clothing and tents. They had to hunt in order to survive, we do not, its a sport, plain and simple, just like fishing, its a means of escape and a source of pleasure. I agree that if deer werent hunted their populations would get out of control, I never said I was against hunting, I just think putting the carcus on display is a little morbid, but thats just my opinion. Indians used bows and arrows to hunt, not 75 pound compound bows or 30/30s, but simple recurves made by hand. Im not bashing hunters, in many ways its just like fishing which I love, Im just saying that in all three examples, hunting, reefkeeping, and the seahorse, the animals are used for human pleasure, removed from the wild, and they die an early death to suit us. Granted that seahorse thing is sick, and its different from keeping a reef, but if theres a demand, someone is going to supply it. I visited the keys last summer, and almost cried when I walked into a shell shop in key west full of dried sea horses, puffers, and star fish. Conservation is a must of course, unfortunately we have no real way of knowing if a dealer is selling us net caught fish, or fish caught with cyanide, in most cases your average LFS has no idea either, all we can do is get to know the owner, if they are interested in the hobby and out to protect it, chances are they are doing their best to get only net caught fish, if not they would be endagering their own business. Stear clear of super stores and LFS that are set up only to make a buck, in most cases the owners and employees have no idea what they are doing, and fish and corals die due to the lack of knowledge and care. Cyanide posioning is hard to detect by the average hobbyist, cyanide affects the digestive system in fish, they may appear very healthy, and then all of a sudden die, that dosnt mean every fish that dies was caught with cyanide, some fish come in ill or with parasites that will kill them if untreated. One way to know for sure is to make sure the fish is eating before you purchase it. There are other things to be weary of other than cyanide, there are a lot of creatures that enter this hobby that are illegal to collect, but somehow they still show up, for instance Ricordia florida are not to be collected on rocks larger than the size of a quarter, but I see posts all the time where people are showing off their new Ricordia rocks, large rocks with dozens of polyps, if you see your LFS selling something you know to be illegal, or something that has no chance in captivity, cause a fuss about it, if he knows no better, teach him, if he blows you off, boycott the place, it may not do much, but word of mouth can have a big impact. Online dealers are a whole other story, the truth is many online dealers tranship thier fish and corals, ie they never even see the individual creature, you put in an order, they call their distibiter out in CA and tell them what to send you. I myself choose not to buy from online sources, unless im after propagated corals, then I buy from a fellow hobbyist or a place I know to be legit. I also like to see what I buy before I get it, how do you know if a fish is in good health if you cant even take a look at the indivdual be it up close or in a picture. Online sources are just like LFS, some are out to protect the hobby, others are out to make a buck, tough to know the difference. If you buy a fish online, ask where the fish is going to depart from. Buy captive bred when possible, as far as corals go there are tons of sp. that can be raised in captivity via propagation, fish are more limited, but as far as clowns go, theres no need to import most of them, as most are actively captive bred these days. If theres a coral or fish you want that is only available from wild collection, research it, make sure its stands a chance and that wild populations are not endangered by collection, such as anemones. I didnt set out to offend anyone, or act like a tree hugger, that sea horse stirred up some feelings, and I acted on them, I think that thing is sick, and there should be laws against killing animals mearly for decoration like that, but the truth is many other creatures die for similar reasons, but we only get offended when its something cute like a seahorse or bunny, lucky rabbits foot anyone.

 

[rogeta]

you want sick and twisted...Just think of rattlesnake round ups...alot of them die for no purpose what so ever...all this talk just brought this up in my mind...but i see what Mr. Yoda (adrian) is saying too..its all wrong if done for pleasure, but some just seem more wrong then others...if its cute people cause a fuss...if its not liked..hey no big deal...seems to be most peoples out look...brings to mind a story from a snake board...hardly anyone complians about feeding rats to snakes...but when someone was going to feed a Boa a puppy (that was just going to be put to sleep anyway)...that was a no no..caused all kinds of fuss...just goes to show you that its all personal prefrence
~Rocco~

 

[j21kickster]

wow, look at what i created!

 

[overanalyzer]

Adrian - not offended - nor do I think of you as a tree hugger (hell I can't bring myself to hunt - ever since watching Bambi). Out my way I hear coyotes all the time ... wish we had more of 'em since the possums are constantly getting into our trash cans!!!
Good discussion!!! And please keep feeding rats to snakes -- would be better if they were wild caught rats!
Last item - is there not a governing body that LFS and web sites can become registered with so we can know they are doing their best to use net caught fish? I went to a different LFS yesterday and he had a lot of fish they just got in and 6 or 7 of them were listing and laying on their sides .... is this cyanide or just stress.
Education over ignorance!

 

[nacl-h2o]

J21kickster, It could have been longer had you brought up the massive killing of corals just to sell their skeletons. It seems like every shop within 50 miles of the ocean and many LFS are full of coral skeletons sold as decorations. Corals harvested just to kill so there skeletons will be perfect and white for consumers. Now thats sad.

 

[j21kickster]

Indeed it is, the seahorse yo-yo was a little more rare than the bleached decorative corals but no less offensive.

 

[jonthefb]

Adrian,. a high five to you and to everyone else who has been participating in this topic. I can see that there are truly some people who care out there. I remember my first lfs experience after going away to college. I went into my lfs after setting my tank up, and was interested in purchasing some corals and fish. The owner looked at me and asked me if i knew that these were saltwater animals. I replied to her yes, and then proceeded to spout off my list of water parameters. Needless to say, she was a little shocked, and she said that most college kids that she gets in the store havent the first idea as to what they are doing. Information is so vital to our hobby, as it is not a science. Marine biology is, but they dont study the affects of captivity on the animals that we keep. We are the scientists and our tanks are our ongoing experiments in the preservation of life. You guys might remember a post to another MB last week where two scients were in a frenzied arguement over the toxicity of our water. We as aquarists need to read this stuff, immerse ourselves in it and ultimately understand it if we ever want our tanks to prosper. good luck everyone and keep up the great and interesting topics!
p.s.j12kickster, where did you find that pic? I noticed that on the top of it it says project seahorse. At first i was pissed cause i thought that project seahorse, (which fas founded by Amanda C.J. Vincent) endorsed this product, then i realized that you probably got the pic from their site, but couldnt find it anywhere. Although there are lots of other disturbign pics on that site. Just a question.
good luck to all,
jon

 

[j21kickster]

Hey,
I found that picture ont the Monterey Bay Aquarium webstie. It was in their preservation of seahorses section. Thier aquariums are.....well for a lack of better words breath taking. Along with the Shed aquarium, Baltimore aquarium and the aquarium in San Diego

 

[adrian]

So thats what that thing is, a yo yo, cant believe I missed that, makes it even worse. Yeah dead coral is just as bad, I work at an LFS and customers are always asking when we are going to get some more blue ridge or pipe organ, makes me sick thinking how much work we put into keeping corals alive, and these people will pay ungodly amounts for dead coral. Imagine how long it took nature to create such large pieces, a decade or two at least. Im sorry to say the store I work at has a stock pile of them, but word is its illegal to collect them alive and kill them for this purpose now, although Im sure that varies from country to country, and a lot of companies are now making coral replicas with concrete and fiberglass that look alomost identical to the real thing. Yes, there is an oganization that governs the trade, CITES, and a new program is in the making which will require stores to complete a series of steps to be recognized as a member, these stores will be credited as selling net caught fish, and bbeing other wise legit stores. Its more for hobbyists, if a store is credited we can feel comfortable shopping there, at least thats how it works on paper.

 

[marine fanatic]

Hunting an animal with a firearm is not hunting, it is slaughtering. And people who say that we should decrease certain animal populations to prevent them from starving is humane? So we should go round up a couple thousand starving humans living in New York City and just eliminate them? Oh I know, that won't work because humans are "god's children" and are above such actions..HA!!!

 

[karlas]

i agree with hunting and fishing ive been around it all my life. but take only what you need if there is no other reason to kill it leave it alone. thats all