sea keeper
Member
I dont know much about them. Can anyone of you tell me more about them.
Thanks,
Barb
Thanks,
Barb
Titanium Heater
- Thread starter sea keeper
- Start date
sea keeper
Member
*Bump*
scsinet
Active Member
The heaters with metal casings have the case grounded. Therefore they act as a grounding probe in the water.
Not a fan of the Won Bros units though. I used to be until they started failing on me and I started reading about other people who lost entire systems to them. I decided to change to Jagers before I crashed a system with one.
Not a fan of the Won Bros units though. I used to be until they started failing on me and I started reading about other people who lost entire systems to them. I decided to change to Jagers before I crashed a system with one.
pandafish
Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
The heaters with metal casings have the case grounded. Therefore they act as a grounding probe in the water.
Oh NO! you did not just give this advice!
Do you have a third Ground prong on your Titanium heater?? NO!
Even Won Bros. say NO! #5 under caution.
Wanbrothers
Whenever putting any kinds of electrical devise into your aquarium, whether, it is water pump, heater etc, it is advised that all aquarium be grounded with a proper grounding probe. If not, possible electrical shock may occur
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by Pandafish
Oh NO! you did not just give this advice!
Do you have a third Ground prong on your Titanium heater?? NO!
All three POS WON Proheat II of mine do and it does meter to the ground prong. SCSI pointed this out a long time ago, so I had to go meter it for myself. He is correct on the WON bros for sure...
scsinet
Active Member
You need to get your facts straight before flaming someone. Simply looking up an instruction manual hardly makes you an expert.
YES, Won Brothers heaters have a third grounding prong, and YES when testing continuity from the grounding prong to the titanium case of the heater, you get continuity, indicating that the titanium case of the heating element is in fact GROUNDED.
ANYTHING in the water that is grounded, with a grounded metal surface exposed to the water becomes a grounding probe in one capacity or another.
And for the record, Won Brothers themselves did not say "no," they simply have a statement for their own liability on their site which recommends a separate grounding probe. That doesn't mean that their heater does not effectively ground the water, it simply means it's not guaranteed to work that way.
YES, Won Brothers heaters have a third grounding prong, and YES when testing continuity from the grounding prong to the titanium case of the heater, you get continuity, indicating that the titanium case of the heating element is in fact GROUNDED.
ANYTHING in the water that is grounded, with a grounded metal surface exposed to the water becomes a grounding probe in one capacity or another.
And for the record, Won Brothers themselves did not say "no," they simply have a statement for their own liability on their site which recommends a separate grounding probe. That doesn't mean that their heater does not effectively ground the water, it simply means it's not guaranteed to work that way.
zman1
Active Member
POS and I don't mean Point Of Sale -LOL
What I find disturbing in the what's not included in the Linited warranty are items 6 and 7 mostly 6.
6. Changing of the IC circuit.
7. Re-adjusting of the temperature sensor in the IC circuit board.
6 reminds me of how this could be applied to a car warranty. Almost bumper to bumper except the engine. Well maybe the computer then...
I was a huge supporter of them untill all three went bad at the year mark. That IC circuit must have a run timer on it -lol
What I find disturbing in the what's not included in the Linited warranty are items 6 and 7 mostly 6.
6. Changing of the IC circuit.
7. Re-adjusting of the temperature sensor in the IC circuit board.
6 reminds me of how this could be applied to a car warranty. Almost bumper to bumper except the engine. Well maybe the computer then...
I was a huge supporter of them untill all three went bad at the year mark. That IC circuit must have a run timer on it -lol
scsinet
Active Member
The same thing happened to me. I own 5 total, and only a couple were still working after one year.
Won would only honor the warranty on one, and even then it was out for service for over a month. The other two I figured out had failed Triacs, which weren't difficult to replace, but I'm an electronics enthusiast so I'm used to that sorta thing.
I'm just glad I wasn't one of the ones who lost a tank to one that stuck on and cooked the tank. Given that I had 5 chances of that happening, I'd say I'm very lucky. I only have one tank left on them, the other 4 I use as spares for heating water change buckets, emergencies, etc.
Won would only honor the warranty on one, and even then it was out for service for over a month. The other two I figured out had failed Triacs, which weren't difficult to replace, but I'm an electronics enthusiast so I'm used to that sorta thing.
I'm just glad I wasn't one of the ones who lost a tank to one that stuck on and cooked the tank. Given that I had 5 chances of that happening, I'd say I'm very lucky. I only have one tank left on them, the other 4 I use as spares for heating water change buckets, emergencies, etc.
zman1
Active Member
I had a cooked tank from a heater once, long ago, but it wasn't a WON. I don't recall the brand. However, it was submersible, glass, green, and a yellow flat adjustment on top, you needed a coin or screw driver to turn it with.
My three WON all read super high temp and never turn on. I posted a picture of two of them on this board and the third is in the box. I hate to say this, but I am still using the two for grounding probes -LOL.
My three WON all read super high temp and never turn on. I posted a picture of two of them on this board and the third is in the box. I hate to say this, but I am still using the two for grounding probes -LOL.
pandafish
Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
You need to get your facts straight before flaming someone. Simply looking up an instruction manual hardly makes you an expert.
YES, Won Brothers heaters have a third grounding prong, and YES when testing continuity from the grounding prong to the titanium case of the heater, you get continuity, indicating that the titanium case of the heating element is in fact GROUNDED.
ANYTHING in the water that is grounded, with a grounded metal surface exposed to the water becomes a grounding probe in one capacity or another.
And for the record, Won Brothers themselves did not say "no," they simply have a statement for their own liability on their site which recommends a separate grounding probe. That doesn't mean that their heater does not effectively ground the water, it simply means it's not guaranteed to work that way.
SCSInet I'm not flaming you! What you posted is irresponsible...period
I have my facts straight. Some Titanium heaters DO NOT have a third prong. Some do...I have two without AND a Ground Probe. (For the very reason you state above I do NOT get continuity, indicating that the titanium case of the heating element is in fact NOT GROUNDED! In essence I have a Titanium tube in my tank that; if I trusted your "advice" might very well KILL me.
You stated:
Originally Posted by SCSInet
heaters with metal casings
Not Won Bro. Specifically (that it matters)
Now think about the Noob that is reading this thread. Buys a non-grounded Titanium Heater and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
Buys a Grounded WON Titanium Heater and unplugs it for a water change and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
But for the record Won Brothers can't be sued!??
Sorry but the only thing I can agree on is that WON POS!! And you are telling people trust your life with POS YOU do not even use any more...Smart! :scared:
Or are you still using the WONs as ground probes? In that case I apologize in advance.
If Titanium Heaters were ment to be Ground Probes. It would be a featured selling point on the package and they would be charging us all another 20 dollars for them.
A Ground probe is only thing you can be sure is grounding your tank.
You give great advice...you have helped me out before...you have a high post count, but you are wrong on this one...sorry.
You need to get your facts straight before flaming someone. Simply looking up an instruction manual hardly makes you an expert.
YES, Won Brothers heaters have a third grounding prong, and YES when testing continuity from the grounding prong to the titanium case of the heater, you get continuity, indicating that the titanium case of the heating element is in fact GROUNDED.
ANYTHING in the water that is grounded, with a grounded metal surface exposed to the water becomes a grounding probe in one capacity or another.
And for the record, Won Brothers themselves did not say "no," they simply have a statement for their own liability on their site which recommends a separate grounding probe. That doesn't mean that their heater does not effectively ground the water, it simply means it's not guaranteed to work that way.
SCSInet I'm not flaming you! What you posted is irresponsible...period
I have my facts straight. Some Titanium heaters DO NOT have a third prong. Some do...I have two without AND a Ground Probe. (For the very reason you state above I do NOT get continuity, indicating that the titanium case of the heating element is in fact NOT GROUNDED! In essence I have a Titanium tube in my tank that; if I trusted your "advice" might very well KILL me.
You stated:
Originally Posted by SCSInet
heaters with metal casings
Not Won Bro. Specifically (that it matters)
Now think about the Noob that is reading this thread. Buys a non-grounded Titanium Heater and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
Buys a Grounded WON Titanium Heater and unplugs it for a water change and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
But for the record Won Brothers can't be sued!??
Sorry but the only thing I can agree on is that WON POS!! And you are telling people trust your life with POS YOU do not even use any more...Smart! :scared:
Or are you still using the WONs as ground probes? In that case I apologize in advance.
If Titanium Heaters were ment to be Ground Probes. It would be a featured selling point on the package and they would be charging us all another 20 dollars for them.
A Ground probe is only thing you can be sure is grounding your tank.
You give great advice...you have helped me out before...you have a high post count, but you are wrong on this one...sorry.
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by Pandafish
A Ground probe is only thing you can be sure is grounding your tank.
There are no guaranties there either. You could have a bad or poor ground to your panel or wiring and stand bare foot in the basement. You could provide a better path to earth ground than the ground prong.
The best way not to fry a noob is GFCI...
A Ground probe is only thing you can be sure is grounding your tank.
There are no guaranties there either. You could have a bad or poor ground to your panel or wiring and stand bare foot in the basement. You could provide a better path to earth ground than the ground prong.
The best way not to fry a noob is GFCI...
pandafish
Member
Originally Posted by zman1
There are no guaranties there either. You could have a bad or poor ground to your panel or wiring and stand bare foot in the basement. You could provide a better path to earth ground than the ground prong.
The best way not to fry a nood is GFCI...
I stand Corrected...GFCI and a Ground Probe.
(which is what I have and should have mentioned)
There are no guaranties there either. You could have a bad or poor ground to your panel or wiring and stand bare foot in the basement. You could provide a better path to earth ground than the ground prong.
The best way not to fry a nood is GFCI...
I stand Corrected...GFCI and a Ground Probe.
(which is what I have and should have mentioned)
scsinet
Active Member
Some Titanium heaters DO NOT have a third prong.
I was not aware of that. I will concede that I should have made clearer that I was referring to Won Brother's heaters specifically and not all heaters. I certainly did not intend to speak of a product's effectiveness in this way without knowing for sure.
Now think about the Noob that is reading this thread. Buys a non-grounded Titanium Heater and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
Buys a Grounded WON Titanium Heater and unplugs it for a water change and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
Yes, but that same noob is just as likely to pull the plug to his power strip with a grounding probe plugged into it (I will note at this time that I am referring to grounding probes that use a "dummy" plug that derives the ground from the ground pin of a receptacle), therefore disconnecting it, or any number of other possibilities that leaves him with no protection. While I agree with you that it's a dangerous situation, there has to be some level of responsibility and knowledge on the part of the aquarist. If a noob is using a heater as a grounding probe, then he should know not to unplug it during a water change (instead, turn down the thermostat), just as anyone would reasonably expect him know with a regular grounding probe.
And everyone should be using a GFI with their grounding probe anyway, which would have tripped long before the aqarist stuck their hand into the water. If they have no grounding probe protection, the GFI would simply trip at this time. That is why I always recommend GFIs to be used on tanks, preferably with a grounding probe as well.
Sorry but the only thing I can agree on is that WON POS!! And you are telling people trust your life with POS YOU do not even use any more..
The reasons I think Won Brothers heaters are POS is for entirely different reasons than their inherent grounding abilities. If someone is intent on using them and wants to run the risk that one fails off or fails on and either lets their tank go cold or cooks their fish, that's their choice, but neither scenario affects the ability of the heater to ground the water. There is no circuitry between the grouding prong of the plug and the case of the heater, just wires and solder.
Or are you still using the WONs as ground probes? In that case I apologize in advance.
No I'm not, and before you jump on me I'll reiterate that the only reason I am not is because of the risk of the failure of the heater, not of the grounding functionality. The one tank I have that still runs a Won is relying on the Won as a grounding device.
A Ground probe is only thing you can be sure is grounding your tank.
I agree, but when you consider the fact that most aquarists do not run any kind of grounding at all, I believe that something is better than nothing. If they are going to either buy a glass heater and no grounding probe or buy a [grounded] titanium heater and no grounding probe, it's obviously better to buy the grounded titanium heater.
So I'm sorry if I failed to mention that I was talking of Won units specifically. I see your point on that, and in the past when I have talked about this I referred specifically to them.
However, I do stand by my argument that provided a WON BROTHERS heater is properly connected to the wall socket, it does effect a suitable ground for the tank, and that a newbie who knows nothing about the relationship between having the heater plugged in and having a grounded tank is just as likely to unplug a grounding probe, either on purpose or inadvertently. Therefore, that newbie needs to understand that in order for a grounding probe (in whatever sense of definition) to function properly, it must be connected to a grounded receptacle at all times. This knowledge applies equally and universally to whatever grounding device you are using, be that a heater with a grounded titanium case or a separate grounding probe.
I was not aware of that. I will concede that I should have made clearer that I was referring to Won Brother's heaters specifically and not all heaters. I certainly did not intend to speak of a product's effectiveness in this way without knowing for sure.
Now think about the Noob that is reading this thread. Buys a non-grounded Titanium Heater and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
Buys a Grounded WON Titanium Heater and unplugs it for a water change and there is stray voltage in the tank? Fried Noob.
Yes, but that same noob is just as likely to pull the plug to his power strip with a grounding probe plugged into it (I will note at this time that I am referring to grounding probes that use a "dummy" plug that derives the ground from the ground pin of a receptacle), therefore disconnecting it, or any number of other possibilities that leaves him with no protection. While I agree with you that it's a dangerous situation, there has to be some level of responsibility and knowledge on the part of the aquarist. If a noob is using a heater as a grounding probe, then he should know not to unplug it during a water change (instead, turn down the thermostat), just as anyone would reasonably expect him know with a regular grounding probe.
And everyone should be using a GFI with their grounding probe anyway, which would have tripped long before the aqarist stuck their hand into the water. If they have no grounding probe protection, the GFI would simply trip at this time. That is why I always recommend GFIs to be used on tanks, preferably with a grounding probe as well.
Sorry but the only thing I can agree on is that WON POS!! And you are telling people trust your life with POS YOU do not even use any more..
The reasons I think Won Brothers heaters are POS is for entirely different reasons than their inherent grounding abilities. If someone is intent on using them and wants to run the risk that one fails off or fails on and either lets their tank go cold or cooks their fish, that's their choice, but neither scenario affects the ability of the heater to ground the water. There is no circuitry between the grouding prong of the plug and the case of the heater, just wires and solder.
Or are you still using the WONs as ground probes? In that case I apologize in advance.
No I'm not, and before you jump on me I'll reiterate that the only reason I am not is because of the risk of the failure of the heater, not of the grounding functionality. The one tank I have that still runs a Won is relying on the Won as a grounding device.
A Ground probe is only thing you can be sure is grounding your tank.
I agree, but when you consider the fact that most aquarists do not run any kind of grounding at all, I believe that something is better than nothing. If they are going to either buy a glass heater and no grounding probe or buy a [grounded] titanium heater and no grounding probe, it's obviously better to buy the grounded titanium heater.
So I'm sorry if I failed to mention that I was talking of Won units specifically. I see your point on that, and in the past when I have talked about this I referred specifically to them.
However, I do stand by my argument that provided a WON BROTHERS heater is properly connected to the wall socket, it does effect a suitable ground for the tank, and that a newbie who knows nothing about the relationship between having the heater plugged in and having a grounded tank is just as likely to unplug a grounding probe, either on purpose or inadvertently. Therefore, that newbie needs to understand that in order for a grounding probe (in whatever sense of definition) to function properly, it must be connected to a grounded receptacle at all times. This knowledge applies equally and universally to whatever grounding device you are using, be that a heater with a grounded titanium case or a separate grounding probe.
pandafish
Member
SCSInet thank you for posting back.
I agree with everything you posted....except I would not trust a Won Bros. Titanium heater as a ground probe for the very reason you stated poor quality of the manufacture. Point being if they make crap boards, I would not trust the soldering either. But at this point we are spliting hairs.
I am using 3 ViaAqua Heaters on my tanks none with third prong. They are great heaters but the controls are sensitive. Once they are "Dialed in" they work great...but this makes you want to unplug them instead of turning them off.
As I stated eariler my intention was not to flame...and if someone gets some info out of this thread and stays safe...all is good
I agree with everything you posted....except I would not trust a Won Bros. Titanium heater as a ground probe for the very reason you stated poor quality of the manufacture. Point being if they make crap boards, I would not trust the soldering either. But at this point we are spliting hairs.
I am using 3 ViaAqua Heaters on my tanks none with third prong. They are great heaters but the controls are sensitive. Once they are "Dialed in" they work great...but this makes you want to unplug them instead of turning them off.
As I stated eariler my intention was not to flame...and if someone gets some info out of this thread and stays safe...all is good
larryndana
Active Member
so what are the brands we should avoid?
and....
which are the best ones to use?
and....
which are the best ones to use?
scsinet
Active Member
Hahaha Okay to get back on topic!
The heaters I buy exclusively now are Jagers. Lots of people swear by the Hydors due to a feature that cuts them off when the water level drops too low. I have one Hydor that I use for misc water heating, and it's never failed me, but I don't have it in continuous service.
ANY heater runs the risk of failing. I have observed less stories of failing Jagers than anything else. Right now I have 8 Jagers running on various systems, and none have given me any issues.
I am also a fan of using (2) 1/2 size heaters rather than (1) full size heater. Figure 5 watts per gallon (estimated...), for your 24g, (2) 50w heaters should be good, for your 75, I'd use (2) 200w units.
This offers a little safety net. If a heater fails "ON" it will take much longer to cook the tank, giving you more time to notice the issue. A full size heater can cook a tank in a matter of hours, but a half size one might take a day or more.
If it fails "OFF" the remaining "good" heater will slow the descent of temperature while you scramble to get a new heater in place.
Titanium heaters, BTW, are a good choice if you put your heater directly into the DT, if you are keeping fish like Triggers, etc that have a tendency to ram equipment around. I've heard of Triggers breaking glass heaters.
The heaters I buy exclusively now are Jagers. Lots of people swear by the Hydors due to a feature that cuts them off when the water level drops too low. I have one Hydor that I use for misc water heating, and it's never failed me, but I don't have it in continuous service.
ANY heater runs the risk of failing. I have observed less stories of failing Jagers than anything else. Right now I have 8 Jagers running on various systems, and none have given me any issues.
I am also a fan of using (2) 1/2 size heaters rather than (1) full size heater. Figure 5 watts per gallon (estimated...), for your 24g, (2) 50w heaters should be good, for your 75, I'd use (2) 200w units.
This offers a little safety net. If a heater fails "ON" it will take much longer to cook the tank, giving you more time to notice the issue. A full size heater can cook a tank in a matter of hours, but a half size one might take a day or more.
If it fails "OFF" the remaining "good" heater will slow the descent of temperature while you scramble to get a new heater in place.
Titanium heaters, BTW, are a good choice if you put your heater directly into the DT, if you are keeping fish like Triggers, etc that have a tendency to ram equipment around. I've heard of Triggers breaking glass heaters.