My post indicated that I had addressed some of these points, but didn't see the point in posting them because people come back with the "just get over it, its not the ocean."
Obviously, if I have a philosophy of reefkeeping, I happen to believe it is the right one.
I couldn't respond with any passion if I did not. I am not a debater, who can successfull argue for either side. I am certain people do not like my style, on both sides.
There are some things I am passionate about, and, to make matters worse, it is often very difficult to express emotions in this format. This may make a person's writing style unpleasant. Sorry if that is what is happening, it is not intended.
From the start, lets throw out any preconceived ideas people may have. FWIW, I am a conservative republican marine biologist. Some people will probably dismiss me because I am a republican, and others because they may think I am an environmentalist wacko.
I might be about to take fire from all sides.
In every situation there are ranges of opinions, I tend to be on the very conservative side. I am not opposed to this hobby, but I expect personal responsibility in reefkeeping and I hope to promote sustainable use and high success rates, instead of the high death rates that are found in certain types of fish. I do not accept this as inevitable. To do this, one must support certain fundamental ideas, such as the fact that animals live in certain conditions in the wild, and the best chance of long term (an emphasis, since it is what we should strive for) success is to mimic those conditions as closely as possible (within reason) in our tanks.
It is also just a lot cheaper than buying a bunch of new fish all the time.
Success with heavily stocked tanks in a few situations, such as the 125 here, is not proof, IMO, that it works. It might work, in certain circumstances, with a lot of gadgets, attention, care and particular timing...but not with the average person who may see that tank and not know what is involved.
In part, it is the number of animals that will die in the attempt to get a tank like that that concerns me. Because the focus on a pretty tank at all costs (except in the equipment) motivates many people who keep salt water tanks. Many people don't think twice when they replace fish every few months, or are (thankfully) driven away by the mere mention that there is some work involved. Many are not.
Now, if you don't happen to agree with me on this, then fine, but I am entitled to it, and I will say it. Disagreement is great, and, if it can be done in a constructive manner, debate is most welcome.
There was a quote I read recently that I keep getting a bit wrong, but it is something like "If we aren't arguing, we are not listening." We're just holding onto our our thoughts without entertaining others, or defending our own.
I will address some previous points.
What is so wrong with keeping the fish in mind when mixing it with other species, regardless of their health? We would take this into account when putting a healthy lionfish in with some small yet very healthy morsel of a fish. Tangs are large, active swimmers, that tend to be a bit, well, anti-social and a 125 gets mighty small, especially with the species in question.
We often see threads on this when it relates to one tang in a 29g tank and most people are on board. So, it seems to me, anything smaller than a 180 for 6 tangs should get people going. I thought for sure, a 125g is 55g short, people will agree with this!
I would say one tang could live for a short period in a 29g tank if it is small and a new tank is in the immediate works. I would say 6 small tangs could live for a short term in a 125 (personality is another issue), but I would expect them to outgrow it and be moved to something bigger- not to a small sales tank at an LFS, where it may likely perish or waste away in another customer's too-small tank because it simply did too well to begin with and grew too large for many people to consider.
Is it WRONG for someone to say, "hey, you got 6 tangs (at least?) in that tank alone, maybe that is too many for that size tank, or you should try different species?" I don't think I have seen 6 different species of tangs in that small an
area on a reef for any length of time, if at all.
So you want a slice of the ocean? Great, but how about being a bit more realistic in that goal? Either you want a slice of the ocean, or you want a pretty box of fish and darn everything else. Again folks, this is my opinion.
If I put a dog in a kennel (or my cats), I look for a few things to minimize the stress and risk to my pet. I look for room to move and play, to run, be outside, distance from other dogs (especially one's that may not be so nice). The difference between a small cage and the pound or a fairly ritzy pet hotel. But first I would always try to find someone to take care of them at home, an environment they are used to, rather then boxing them up and stressing them out...that is the number one goal if it is possible.
What is wrong with proposing that people keep a tank that is somewhat similar to the environment that these fish came from, with reagards to the stocking of fish? No, it is not be the ocean, it is not my point to say "leave them there" either. 2 tangs in a 125? Yeah, I could go with that (not the Naso). 3 is pushing it.
I worked at an LFS before it got to me. Seeing a number of people trade in fish when they just wanted something else, or didn't think of how big it will get, makes you a bit jaded with the whole thing (and we did tank maintenance too, so I don't have a problem with that, either).
There was a daily mantra repeated with so many fish "what are you going to do when this outgrows your tank." "Oh, I'll get a new tank." Yeah, sure you will.
I see people who claim to "take great care of their fish" and have all the equipment, and when they bring in their fish for trade they go straight into the hospital and are dead within a week from extreme lateral line disease or other problems.
Perhaps people don't know how often it happens. Very few hobbyists actually educate themselves on boards like this. You guys are not the norm in the hobby.
By all means, I am all for people buying bigger tanks. I
expect that they will buy bigger tanks for their fish if they choose to keep
large species. By all means, upgrade, upgrade, upgrade! I used to sell tanks; I know lots of people who would be happy to sell ya a tank
. The chances of the fish surviving long term is best in an upgraded tank with the same owner, rather than going back to an LFS and then onto who knows where.
I am all for upgrading tanks; but it still means that you are buying fish that you have the ultimate desire to keep at adult size and you will invest in a larger tank to that end. I will still say that you should keep fish that you can keep at adult size, in your current tank, or the one you know you will buy in a year. If that it not reasonable (to buy a larger tank), then you shouldn't buy Naso tangs, large groupers, etc, IMO.
But many, many people don't plan for that. Many people plan for the tank to look "pretty" especially for big parties like the super ball. Yes, people do come in and stock their tanks up for the big parties without giving a darn what they are getting or what they will do with it. It is not a big worry since they will die. But. out of curiosity, I asked them what they would do, and many of them left and went to other stores when they were not sold what they wanted from us.
IMO, simply because there are no predators in a tank, does not necessarily mean the fish will vary from what is hard wired instinctive behavior. If they "know" that there are no predators in the tank and that they're never at risk and don't have to hide somewhere to sleep, then why don't they also "know" they are in a very small tank with a lot of fish they wouldn't choose to swim with? This would be difficult to test, but it is an interesting idea. To do it, we would have to observe the fish with and without additional LR, to see where they prefer to sleep, at the very least.
Finally, sorry this has become an 'activist' thread, but the question of keeping so many large fish in such a tank lends itself to ethical debate. Any hobby that is based on keeping live animals has an ethical side that must be addressed by every person involved, and it is never fun or easy to do. But it is important to think about the arguments, and make up your mind, whatever your opinion may be.
Again, these are only my (often mighty unpopular) opinions!! I hope I have clarified them. I am not saying they are always right, they're just right 99% of the time.
Just kidding people!
