Too much LS????
- Thread starter saltyvt
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nereef
Guest
it depends on what you like the looks of. also, if you have burrowing creatures, such as a watchman and pistol shrimp(as would be awesome in an 8 gallon) they will appreciate about a 2" bed.
the live sand is live because it already has nitrifying bacteria on it along with possible hitchhikers. a deep sand bed would need to be 5 of more inches to be effective, so this isn't really an option in most display tanks, especially 8 gallon ones.
the live sand is live because it already has nitrifying bacteria on it along with possible hitchhikers. a deep sand bed would need to be 5 of more inches to be effective, so this isn't really an option in most display tanks, especially 8 gallon ones.
krishj39
Active Member
Originally Posted by NEreef
it depends on what you like the looks of. also, if you have burrowing creatures, such as a watchman and pistol shrimp(as would be awesome in an 8 gallon) they will appreciate about a 2" bed.
the live sand is live because it already has nitrifying bacteria on it along with possible hitchhikers. a deep sand bed would need to be 5 of more inches to be effective, so this isn't really an option in most display tanks, especially 8 gallon ones.
I agree, I think what you have it enough for an 8 gallon. Your tank is too small to get much or any benefit from a true deep sand bed because there is too little area in that small tank for anaerobic bacteria to grow and remove nitrates. But at around 2 inches of live sand you can still have a lot of helpful critters in the sand which will diversify your eco-system.
it depends on what you like the looks of. also, if you have burrowing creatures, such as a watchman and pistol shrimp(as would be awesome in an 8 gallon) they will appreciate about a 2" bed.
the live sand is live because it already has nitrifying bacteria on it along with possible hitchhikers. a deep sand bed would need to be 5 of more inches to be effective, so this isn't really an option in most display tanks, especially 8 gallon ones.
I agree, I think what you have it enough for an 8 gallon. Your tank is too small to get much or any benefit from a true deep sand bed because there is too little area in that small tank for anaerobic bacteria to grow and remove nitrates. But at around 2 inches of live sand you can still have a lot of helpful critters in the sand which will diversify your eco-system.
gen1dustin
Member
Originally Posted by Bonebrake
That depth of sand is fine!
:joy:
Agreed.
That depth of sand is fine!
:joy:
Agreed.
acrylic51
Active Member
Originally Posted by chris57
not at all i have herd people say they have 5 in deep live sand beds you need some what deep sand beds if you want the live sand to be effective
Statement not accurately true!!!!!!! DSB are a really debateable topic and most of the things that take place in any sand bed are done withing the top 3/4"-1" of a sand bed......
not at all i have herd people say they have 5 in deep live sand beds you need some what deep sand beds if you want the live sand to be effective
Statement not accurately true!!!!!!! DSB are a really debateable topic and most of the things that take place in any sand bed are done withing the top 3/4"-1" of a sand bed......
N
nereef
Guest
Originally Posted by acrylic51
most of the things that take place in any sand bed are done withing the top 3/4"-1" of a sand bed......
i disagree. anaerobic bacteria make a dsb work. they are the bacteria that can break down nitrates into nitrogen gas so it can escape the system. the top 3/4 to 1" of a sand bed can't possibly be anaerobic.
most of the things that take place in any sand bed are done withing the top 3/4"-1" of a sand bed......
i disagree. anaerobic bacteria make a dsb work. they are the bacteria that can break down nitrates into nitrogen gas so it can escape the system. the top 3/4 to 1" of a sand bed can't possibly be anaerobic.
acrylic51
Active Member
Here we go again!!!!!! Do I need to go back and pull out the articles and type word for word again and again......I guess we know more about this area then the pros out there that have been studying this since the late 70's up until this current time.....
If you do a search on this topic you'll see I've posted much info and if needed will dig out the books and start again....Like I said very debateable topic, and if you look around DSB aren't all their cracked up to be and you'll see there's been and has been a major swing from DSB to either BB or SSB.....
If you do a search on this topic you'll see I've posted much info and if needed will dig out the books and start again....Like I said very debateable topic, and if you look around DSB aren't all their cracked up to be and you'll see there's been and has been a major swing from DSB to either BB or SSB.....
acrylic51
Active Member
Originally Posted by NEreef
i disagree. anaerobic bacteria make a dsb work. they are the bacteria that can break down nitrates into nitrogen gas so it can escape the system. the top 3/4 to 1" of a sand bed can't possibly be anaerobic.
Should I start pulling the articles now!!!!!!
i disagree. anaerobic bacteria make a dsb work. they are the bacteria that can break down nitrates into nitrogen gas so it can escape the system. the top 3/4 to 1" of a sand bed can't possibly be anaerobic.
Should I start pulling the articles now!!!!!!
acrylic51
Active Member
All that has to be done is go back and search the threads on that very topic and I've quoted more than on 1 occassion dating almost a 25yr steady from various well noted people in the hobby on this subject.......Go back and read the threads where I've quoted the information.....Matter of fact one of the most impressive tanks around and not to many will disagree is Steve West tank....I wonder why he removes a portion of his sand bed during maintenance and replaces it????? :thinking: Several reasons of course, but like I said DSB are maintenanced like they should and aren't cracked up to what many will lead to believe.......never heard of a tank going down because of BB or SSB.....IMO the place for your DSB is in the fuge not in the display tank if your going to employ that practice.....Who wants to look at tons of sand?
acrylic51
Active Member
Info that is requested and will go back and bump the thread current as well:Hey 1Journeyman.....with the information you requested......Where I read the information at was in Marine Reef 2004 edition......Don't know if you can get back copies of it, but the title of the article is Benefits of Sand Beds. The article was done by Richard Harker.
The article states and footnotes that the study has been done and looked at many times as early at the mid 80's. I'm highlighting some areas, can't type the whole article unless you'd like that, but it cites: "At first this was perplexing. One would think that a thin layer of sand would haave normal oxygen levels and therfore aid in nitirification. It seemed equally unlikely that a thin sand bed could aid in denitrification, unless areas of low levels of oxygen were present."
As it turned out, the apparent contraditctions was rooted in the hobby's overly simplistic understanding of the nature of oxic and anoxic zones within a sand bed. The traditional hobbyist explanantion of sand beds is that a a sand bed is stratified, with and oxic zone of sand in the upper portion of the bed and anozic layers only in the deeper portions of the bed. According to the theory, nitrite is oxidized into nitrate in the aerobic zone, then converted into nitrogen gas as it drifts into the lower anaerobic zone.
Unfortunately, this simplification of the process mistakenly leads some hobbyists to conclude that one needs a deeps sand bed for denitrification. The scientific literature on the matter makes it clear that the nitrogen cycle in sediments is far more complicated. As it turns out, nitrification and denitrification are closely coupled and, and in fact, occure almost simultaneously. "The remarkable tight coupling of nitrification and denitrification suggests that the two-layer model in which the processes are separated into distinct vertical strata may not be appropriate" (Jenkins, 1984). A significant amount of denitrification occurs in anozic and suboxic micro-zones within the top layer of sand. Large areas of the sediment surface are suboxic, especially at night, and that anoxia predominaates at depth greater than about 1 cm (King 1990).
Denitrification is most likely to occur close to where nitrification takes place, and this occurs at the surface of the sand. As much as 70 to 90 percent of the overall denitrification was located in the uppermost centimeter. The remainder was found at the 1-3 cm depth (Anderson 1984). It turns out that an anaerobiic habitat can be as small as 1 mm, that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria essentially coexist, and that as little as 0.08 mm distance is sufficient for nitrification and denitrification to take place simultaneously (Frenchel 1995)
The article states and footnotes that the study has been done and looked at many times as early at the mid 80's. I'm highlighting some areas, can't type the whole article unless you'd like that, but it cites: "At first this was perplexing. One would think that a thin layer of sand would haave normal oxygen levels and therfore aid in nitirification. It seemed equally unlikely that a thin sand bed could aid in denitrification, unless areas of low levels of oxygen were present."
As it turned out, the apparent contraditctions was rooted in the hobby's overly simplistic understanding of the nature of oxic and anoxic zones within a sand bed. The traditional hobbyist explanantion of sand beds is that a a sand bed is stratified, with and oxic zone of sand in the upper portion of the bed and anozic layers only in the deeper portions of the bed. According to the theory, nitrite is oxidized into nitrate in the aerobic zone, then converted into nitrogen gas as it drifts into the lower anaerobic zone.
Unfortunately, this simplification of the process mistakenly leads some hobbyists to conclude that one needs a deeps sand bed for denitrification. The scientific literature on the matter makes it clear that the nitrogen cycle in sediments is far more complicated. As it turns out, nitrification and denitrification are closely coupled and, and in fact, occure almost simultaneously. "The remarkable tight coupling of nitrification and denitrification suggests that the two-layer model in which the processes are separated into distinct vertical strata may not be appropriate" (Jenkins, 1984). A significant amount of denitrification occurs in anozic and suboxic micro-zones within the top layer of sand. Large areas of the sediment surface are suboxic, especially at night, and that anoxia predominaates at depth greater than about 1 cm (King 1990).
Denitrification is most likely to occur close to where nitrification takes place, and this occurs at the surface of the sand. As much as 70 to 90 percent of the overall denitrification was located in the uppermost centimeter. The remainder was found at the 1-3 cm depth (Anderson 1984). It turns out that an anaerobiic habitat can be as small as 1 mm, that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria essentially coexist, and that as little as 0.08 mm distance is sufficient for nitrification and denitrification to take place simultaneously (Frenchel 1995)
acrylic51
Active Member
and more.....Denitrificatio cand and does take place in very shallow sand beds. Anaerobic areas do exist in deep sand beds, and denitrification can take place if nitrate reaches these areas. However, these deep areas are the least likely sites for denitrification. This more accurate explanation of the nitrogen cycle within a sand bed explains why just 1 or 2 inches of sand can be so efficient in helping eliminate nitrate from a reef tank.
A number of chemical cycles take place in a healthy reef tank, and the nitrogen cycle of ommonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitorgen gas is just one of them. Another is the sulphur cycle. If nitrogen compounds can be eliminated in a shallow sand bed, what about sulfates? Here again, the new is good. Numerous studies have shown that sulfate reduction can take place very close to the surface of the substrate in areas that one might assume are oxic. In one study of a coral reef, sulfate reduction was detected within the first 0.75 inch of sediment and peaked at 1.5 inches (King 1990). In another study of a coral reef, reducing sediments were found in only 0.75 inch of sediment depth (Williams 2003). A third study of carbonate sediments found that "sulfate reduction rates and numbers of sulfate reducing bacteria decreased with depth" (Hines 2004). So, it turns out the chemical processes that take place in a sand bed occur in the first couple inches of sand.
This is because even a thin sand bed is a very complex enviroment. Oxygen levels are not constant in a sand bed but rather in a constant state of flux, changing as water motion, bioturbation and chemical and biological processes take place. An area of sand that has a high level of oxygen during the day may become anoxic at night as microscopic organisms consume the oxygen in the immediate area. The same area that provides nitrification during the day can provided denitrification and sulfate reduction during the night.
"At night, the oxygen was depleted after the cessation of photosynthetic activity (in the upper few millimeters) and shown to be at a maximum at night" (Jensen 2001). Furthermore, the detritus that falls to the substrate in a reef tank harbors its own anaerobic bacteria, so anaerobic processes can take place even on the surface of the substrate.
A sand bed is a valuable addition to a reef tank because of its biological filtering abilities, but a sand bed also provides much more. It offers a habitat for many small organisms that act as scavengers, keeping the sand clean and preventing detritus from building up. At the same time, these animals serve as food for larger creatures. Worms such as polychaetes and nematodes live in the sand. They use the sand as shelter, living amoung the grains. Other valuable scavengerssuch as amphipods and copepods, do not necessarily need a sand bed to thrive in a reef tank, but their numbers can grow larger in a tank with a sand bed.
Squishy, I love debateable topics and we've done this forever on this subject......Journeyman might chime in as well if he's around......
I'm not stating they don't work, but you hear so much that you have to have a DSB to be successfull, and it's just insane.....BB are very successfull and I don't run BB by any means.....I'm just saying that when people start quoting you need 5" or whatever to make it work......Totally wrong and that's what gets me going.......I've been out of work to long and have to much time on my hands and can spend tons of time reading and dreaming of some craziness to build next......
A number of chemical cycles take place in a healthy reef tank, and the nitrogen cycle of ommonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitorgen gas is just one of them. Another is the sulphur cycle. If nitrogen compounds can be eliminated in a shallow sand bed, what about sulfates? Here again, the new is good. Numerous studies have shown that sulfate reduction can take place very close to the surface of the substrate in areas that one might assume are oxic. In one study of a coral reef, sulfate reduction was detected within the first 0.75 inch of sediment and peaked at 1.5 inches (King 1990). In another study of a coral reef, reducing sediments were found in only 0.75 inch of sediment depth (Williams 2003). A third study of carbonate sediments found that "sulfate reduction rates and numbers of sulfate reducing bacteria decreased with depth" (Hines 2004). So, it turns out the chemical processes that take place in a sand bed occur in the first couple inches of sand.
This is because even a thin sand bed is a very complex enviroment. Oxygen levels are not constant in a sand bed but rather in a constant state of flux, changing as water motion, bioturbation and chemical and biological processes take place. An area of sand that has a high level of oxygen during the day may become anoxic at night as microscopic organisms consume the oxygen in the immediate area. The same area that provides nitrification during the day can provided denitrification and sulfate reduction during the night.
"At night, the oxygen was depleted after the cessation of photosynthetic activity (in the upper few millimeters) and shown to be at a maximum at night" (Jensen 2001). Furthermore, the detritus that falls to the substrate in a reef tank harbors its own anaerobic bacteria, so anaerobic processes can take place even on the surface of the substrate.
A sand bed is a valuable addition to a reef tank because of its biological filtering abilities, but a sand bed also provides much more. It offers a habitat for many small organisms that act as scavengers, keeping the sand clean and preventing detritus from building up. At the same time, these animals serve as food for larger creatures. Worms such as polychaetes and nematodes live in the sand. They use the sand as shelter, living amoung the grains. Other valuable scavengerssuch as amphipods and copepods, do not necessarily need a sand bed to thrive in a reef tank, but their numbers can grow larger in a tank with a sand bed.
Squishy, I love debateable topics and we've done this forever on this subject......Journeyman might chime in as well if he's around......
I'm not stating they don't work, but you hear so much that you have to have a DSB to be successfull, and it's just insane.....BB are very successfull and I don't run BB by any means.....I'm just saying that when people start quoting you need 5" or whatever to make it work......Totally wrong and that's what gets me going.......I've been out of work to long and have to much time on my hands and can spend tons of time reading and dreaming of some craziness to build next......
fish-man-t
Member
Originally Posted by NEreef
i disagree. anaerobic bacteria make a dsb work. they are the bacteria that can break down nitrates into nitrogen gas so it can escape the system. the top 3/4 to 1" of a sand bed can't possibly be anaerobic.
agreed
i disagree. anaerobic bacteria make a dsb work. they are the bacteria that can break down nitrates into nitrogen gas so it can escape the system. the top 3/4 to 1" of a sand bed can't possibly be anaerobic.
agreed
