Tropic Marin sucks

[ctgretzky9]

All salt mixes are great, and all of them suck.
You MUST test each and every new batch of mix up water for any salt brand you get. NO SALT is consitent at all, and can vary widely from batch to batch. This is one of the most overlooked aspects of reefkeeping! People put too much trust that their "perfect salt" is always perfect.
Point is, no matter what salt you use, it is never going to work the same each batch, and knowing what is in YOUR batch by testing it's parameters each new bucket, and halfway through, is the ONLY way you will know.
Personally, I like IO, as its low calcium and alk allow me to easily adjust by using b-ionic 2 part. Bu even if I switched, I would know it will take a while to get used to the new salt by testing and retesting each batch, and learning what I need to do to make up for its shortcomings.

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
NO SALT is consitent at all, and can vary widely from batch to batch.
What do you base this claim on?

 

[ctgretzky9]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFla
What do you base this claim on?

Years of seeing the test results that the manufacturers themselves post...for example, IO's product testing is below, feel free to research the rest on your own

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
Years of seeing the test results that the manufacturers themselves post...for example, IO's product testing is below, feel free to research the rest on your own

Hope Bob Fenner does not mind if I steal from his website a little.
Which salt?
What are your thoughts on Aqua Craft's Marine
Environment Dual Phase salt? What about this S-15
report that is being used to compare salts? Is there
much validity to this or is this someone's marketing
hype?
Pete
<This is a fine product... on par with many of the other American made synthetics. The stated "report" is not "good science" (open samples provided by ME other peoples products..., study paid for by them...) and has been derided since its production... there are numerous independent studies by marine hobbyists/chemists of various salt brands... though they are not easy to reference (some on on-line 'zines, others as part of the now-defunct Aquarium Frontiers and AF online zines...). A good product in my estimation however, though this "report" is more hype than reality. Bob Fenner>

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
Years of seeing the test results that the manufacturers themselves post...for example, IO's product testing is below, feel free to research the rest on your own

BTW, I believe the S-15 report came out in 1993.

 

[ctgretzky9]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFla
Hope Bob Fenner does not mind if I steal from his website a little.
Which salt?
What are your thoughts on Aqua Craft's Marine
Environment Dual Phase salt? What about this S-15
report that is being used to compare salts? Is there
much validity to this or is this someone's marketing
hype?
Pete
<This is a fine product... on par with many of the other American made synthetics. The stated "report" is not "good science" (open samples provided by ME other peoples products..., study paid for by them...) and has been derided since its production... there are numerous independent studies by marine hobbyists/chemists of various salt brands... though they are not easy to reference (some on on-line 'zines, others as part of the now-defunct Aquarium Frontiers and AF online zines...). A good product in my estimation however, though this "report" is more hype than reality. Bob Fenner>
I'm not quite sure why you posted this? If you test your own salt, you will see that the results are a bit different for each batch. Fenner only was stating that the specific testing of that one product, ME, was faulty. The testing of that product was paid for by ME, and they had some coercion to having the results go a certain way....to make them look good.
Note "open samples...." used for the s-15. Besides, the Fenner stuff is pretty old I believe. I also think many of Fenner's claims and methodologies, as well as other "experts" have changed more times than my underwear. All I know, is it is a fact, with manufacturers admitting it, that no batches can possibly be made the exact same, with an occassional flop of a bucket where magnesium 9in the case of IO, for example) was incredibly high, or low....

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
I'm not quite sure why you posted this? If you test your own salt, you will see that the results are a bit different for each batch. Fenner only was stating that the specific testing of that one product, ME, was faulty. The testing of that product was paid for by ME, and they had some coercion to having the results go a certain way....to make them look good.
Note "open samples...." used for the s-15. Besides, the Fenner stuff is pretty old I believe. I also think many of Fenner's claims and methodologies, as well as other "experts" have changed more times than my underwear. All I know, is it is a fact, with manufacturers admitting it, that no batches can possibly be made the exact same, with an occassional flop of a bucket where magnesium 9in the case of IO, for example) was incredibly high, or low....
I posted it because you posted the chart for IO from the S-15 report and stated that it was IOs testing. I just wanted to show that the S-15 report (and therefore the chart you posted from the S-15 report) was outdated and was not produced under strict sceintific conditions, nor was it produced by IO and in fact appears to be more of a marketing tool for another salt manufacturer.
I certainly do not disagree that there is some variance between batches of salt, I dont think anyone would argue that point, but I personally do not think it is that significant.
When you buy asprin that are 325mg I assure you that not all the

[hr]
in the bottle are exactly 325mg. Some are probably 320mg and some 330mg, but overall this small variance makes no difference.
Earlier you stated:
Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
NO SALT is consitent at all, and can vary widely from batch to batch.
I was just looking for some good scientific proof to support this claim.

 

[turningtim]

Originally Posted by mujtba
I just got Tropic Marin salt.
Made new gallons of RODI water with it at 1.025 salinity.
I used the salifert MAG and CALC test kits.
RESULTS:
Calcium: 360ppm
Magnesium: 990ppm
Both well below the normal numbers. There is so much hype around this brand of salt. Did anyone else test their parameters on a fresh 'batch' of water? :thinking:
Im not too impressed with it. It was $60. I returned my $35 instant ocean for this thinking it will be good.
What salt has NORMAL calcium and magnesium??? :notsure:
I have tested the TM reg and came up with pretty much the same numbers but my mag was 1300, calc 360 and alk 11. These are not BAD at all IMO. Besides I've found that its at least consistant. TM came out with the proreef b/c folks were bugging about the CA levels. I made the switch and that tests out Ca 420-440, alk 9 and mag stayed the same. These tests were done using Salifert kits and SG 1.025.
To say that TM sucks is a joke right, when comparing to IO. I used IO and almost lost my tank I won't use it anymore and will not switch from TM. I'll take consistantcy over a guessing game anyday. At least you know what you are dealing with.....
JMO
Tim

 

[ctgretzky9]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFla
I posted it because you posted the chart for IO from the S-15 report and stated that it was IOs testing. I just wanted to show that the S-15 report (and therefore the chart you posted from the S-15 report) was outdated and was not produced under strict sceintific conditions, nor was it produced by IO and in fact appears to be more of a marketing tool for another salt manufacturer.
I certainly do not disagree that there is some variance between batches of salt, I dont think anyone would argue that point, but I personally do not think it is that significant.
When you buy asprin that are 325mg I assure you that not all the

[hr]
in the bottle are exactly 325mg. Some are probably 320mg and some 330mg, but overall this small variance makes no difference.
Earlier you stated:
I was just looking for some good scientific proof to support this claim.
Got ya....that was just one report I had handy without searching for data on the web. There are many on the web that all show the same thing. I have seen them many times, and as well in several publications. Besides that fact, my own testing has shown differences between batches of salt mixes where one could have calcium at 360, another at 400, another at 410, or mag at 1280, another at 1340 etc...I test every batch twice, and have differences continually. It is just a known entity in the hobby by experienced reefers.
It is very signifigant. How do you know what to dose or make up for without knowing what is going in? Since things like alk/calc/mag are interrelated, differences between them as a whole can make a huge difference. While just the calc could be off by 50, it could swing the alk balance out of whack if it is already on an opposite scale. Balance is a key aspect of the buffer system and pH. Small variations in one can influence larger variations in the others.
Point is, it is better to take 2 minutes to test the basics right from the start, than to figure out 6 water changes later why now someone has a calcium level of 380 in the tank, and the alk is now 4.5.

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
Got ya....that was just one report I had handy without searching for data on the web. There are many on the web that all show the same thing. I have seen them many times, and as well in several publications. Besides that fact, my own testing has shown differences between batches of salt mixes where one could have calcium at 360, another at 400, another at 410, or mag at 1280, another at 1340 etc...I test every batch twice, and have differences continually. It is just a known entity in the hobby by experienced reefers.
It is very signifigant. How do you know what to dose or make up for without knowing what is going in? Since things like alk/calc/mag are interrelated, differences between them as a whole can make a huge difference. While just the calc could be off by 50, it could swing the alk balance out of whack if it is already on an opposite scale. Balance is a key aspect of the buffer system and pH. Small variations in one can influence larger variations in the others.
Point is, it is better to take 2 minutes to test the basics right from the start, than to figure out 6 water changes later why now someone has a calcium level of 380 in the tank, and the alk is now 4.5.
I find this topic intersting and I will continue to search the net. I would love to have lab produced sceintific data on all available brands.
One thing I would like to mention - most of us do a 10% - 20% water change. If calcium, magnesium or alkalinity were off in the replacement water, it is only going to have a 10% -20% difference when diluted with the remaining tank water.
For instance if you maintain your tank Calcium at 450ppm (as I do) and you do a 15% water change and you get a crappy batch of mix where the Calcium is 300ppm (this would be an extreme IMO) you would only effect your tank minimially:
85% (water left in tank) - 450ppm Ca
15% (replacement water) - 300ppm Ca
(450 x .85) + (300 x .15) = 427.5ppm. So even in this extreme case the Calcium would only go down 22.5ppm or 5%.

 

[ctgretzky9]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFla
I find this topic intersting and I will continue to search the net. I would love to have lab produced sceintific data on all available brands.
One thing I would like to mention - most of us do a 10% - 20% water change. If calcium, magnesium or alkalinity were off in the replacement water, it is only going to have a 10% -20% difference when diluted with the remaining tank water.
For instance if you maintain your tank Calcium at 450ppm (as I do) and you do a 15% water change and you get a crappy batch of mix where the Calcium is 300ppm (this would be an extreme IMO) you would only effect your tank minimially:
85% (water left in tank) - 450ppm Ca
15% (replacement water) - 300ppm Ca
(450 x .85) + (300 x .15) = 427.5ppm. So even in this extreme case the Calcium would only go down 22.5ppm or 5%.

Yes, now multiply that change by going through a bucket of salt...say 15 or so water changes in that bucket.....now suppose the alk is off a bit. THink about how a buffer system can break down quickly as calcium is continually lowered over the course of 10, 15, 20 water changes. Now someone posts..." my calcium keeps going down, what is the problem?" and they havent even checked the salt mix....they try and compensate other ways...dosing things to get it right. Soon enough, the balance is out of wack, and all it would have taken would have been a couple of minutes of testing the batch.
That's all. For you and I, who have had tanks for a while, this may be a non issue. We can probably figure it out at some point. But to be safe, I still test all of the time, its easy. It is just one more thing to do to keep things as stable as possible.
The idea of this bulletin board is to help those who maybe havent thought of these things. Some people don't even let their mix up water circulate for 24 hrs or so, they add freshly mixed water from 2 minutes ago to the tank, and wonder why alk is so off. I did it in the beginning.

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
Yes, now multiply that change by going through a bucket of salt...say 15 or so water changes in that bucket.....now suppose the alk is off a bit. THink about how a buffer system can break down quickly as calcium is continually lowered over the course of 10, 15, 20 water changes. Now someone posts..." my calcium keeps going down, what is the problem?" and they havent even checked the salt mix....they try and compensate other ways...dosing things to get it right. Soon enough, the balance is out of wack, and all it would have taken would have been a couple of minutes of testing the batch.
That's all. For you and I, who have had tanks for a while, this may be a non issue. We can probably figure it out at some point. But to be safe, I still test all of the time, its easy. It is just one more thing to do to keep things as stable as possible.
The idea of this bulletin board is to help those who maybe havent thought of these things. Some people don't even let their mix up water circulate for 24 hrs or so, they add freshly mixed water from 2 minutes ago to the tank, and wonder why alk is so off. I did it in the beginning.

You certainly have some valid arguements. I am still curious to know what the variation is from batch to batch.
Do you test each batch from a bucket? I would think that testing the first batch would be sufficient, but I am curious to know if you get different readings from the same bucket.
If I thought I could get enough people to send me samples of their salt I would create a spreadsheet of the various readings. It would not be done with high-tech lab equipment, but it would be more of a test for consistency from batch to batch than anything. Maybe I could talk the LFS into lending me their digital meters for a day for more accurate readings for the items that could be measured digitally. :thinking:
Hmmmm. I wonder if I could get enough people to send me maybe 1/2 cup of their salt, with brand name and batch number. Could be very interesting (Unless one of the manufacturers puts a contract out on me)

I could test:
PH when first made and after standing 24 hours.
Ca
dKh
NO3
NO2
PO4
Mg
Strontium
Iodine
Silicates
and how much salt it takes to make a specified amount of water at a specific salinity.

 

[ctgretzky9]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFla
You certainly have some valid arguements. I am still curious to know what the variation is from batch to batch.
Do you test each batch from a bucket? I would think that testing the first batch would be sufficient, but I am curious to know if you get different readings from the same bucket.
If I thought I could get enough people to send me samples of their salt I would create a spreadsheet of the various readings. It would not be done with high-tech lab equipment, but it would be more of a test for consistency from batch to batch than anything. Maybe I could talk the LFS into lending me their digital meters for a day for more accurate readings for the items that could be measured digitally. :thinking:
Hmmmm. I wonder if I could get enough people to send me maybe 1/2 cup of their salt, with brand name and batch number. Could be very interesting (Unless one of the manufacturers puts a contract out on me)

I could test:
PH when first made and after standing 24 hours.
Ca
dKh
NO3
NO2
PO4
Mg
Strontium
Iodine
Silicates
and how much salt it takes to make a specified amount of water at a specific salinity.
Variation within the buckets, not really. Not enough to say it wasnt the test kit or my hands were slightly dirty etc...I could probably stop doing this at some point, but I like to be sure lol. I feel ya never know! Usually, I test the first batch or 2 of mix up water, then around half to 3/4 of the way into the bucket again.
I'd send ya some samples. I have a bucket I am about half through, and will be getting another bucket probably by the beginning of May. Email me at some point when you are ready, Ill ship samples out. Maybe you want to post this as a new thread requesting samples

 

[phoenixfla]

Originally Posted by ctgretzky9
Variation within the buckets, not really. Not enough to say it wasnt the test kit or my hands were slightly dirty etc...I could probably stop doing this at some point, but I like to be sure lol. I feel ya never know! Usually, I test the first batch or 2 of mix up water, then around half to 3/4 of the way into the bucket again.
I'd send ya some samples. I have a bucket I am about half through, and will be getting another bucket probably by the beginning of May. Email me at some point when you are ready, Ill ship samples out. Maybe you want to post this as a new thread requesting samples
Already did.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/212555/salt-mix-quality-consistency-experiment
If I get enough response then I will set a deadline for people to send me samples. Maybe 45 or 60 days from now and perform all tests on the same day for consistency. I will probably use distilled water so there is no chance of inconsistencies from my RO water.
Sounds like a fun project. Hopefully I can get 10 or 15 people to send me samples. Especially IO and Tropic Marin, which seem to be the most highly regarded brands. I am also curious to see the difference between the so-called reef salt compared to the standard salt.