Turf Scrubber or Protein Skimmer. Which is more beneficial to the aquarium.
- Thread starter kiefers
- Start date
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Thank you, I thought it turned out quite nicely.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Water changes, low bioloads, chemical filtration medias, macroalgae and an abundance of live rock and high flow.
al&burke
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418596
Water changes, low bioloads, chemical filtration medias, macroalgae and an abundance of live rock and high flow.
Thanks Snake appreciate it.
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418596
Water changes, low bioloads, chemical filtration medias, macroalgae and an abundance of live rock and high flow.
Thanks Snake appreciate it.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
your welcome?
I just thought that may have been common knowledge...
I just thought that may have been common knowledge...
2quills
Well-Known Member
That artical doesn't speak much about what they learned other than it really didn't work for them. On the flip side you can look at places like inland Aquatics who've been running scrubbers based off of Dr.Adeys design since the 90's as their only source of filtration for coral propigation just fine. All types of coral. Intact they sell the design and pay royalties to Adey I believe. Lots of lessons learned since then. I plan on going with both types of filtration Personaly because they both can have thier limits.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
In most home aquariums, algae scrubbers have a serious application. I agree with 2Quills, the article just said that it didn't work for them, without going into any detail. You can not, from the article, draw the conclusion that the application completely does not work. Modern algae scrubbers are a viable solution to deal with nitrate and phosphate in home aquaria.
spanko
Active Member
Well you can draw the conclusion that it did not work in the application at the Great Barrier Reef Aquarium in terms of coral growth. Yes I wish there was some more detail there.
Have either of you read Dr. Adey's book "Dynamic Aquaria". I have not just wondering if you had.
Have either of you read Dr. Adey's book "Dynamic Aquaria". I have not just wondering if you had.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418728
No I have not. It is on my wish list of literature to read. However it is referened quite a bit and contents discussed over on the scrubber site.
Ditto.
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418728
No I have not. It is on my wish list of literature to read. However it is referened quite a bit and contents discussed over on the scrubber site.
Ditto.
stdreb27
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium#post_3418333
Protein skimmers have not been proven to add any dissolved oxygen to the water column. DO measurements at the input and output of protein skimmers are almost exactly the same. (article pending)
I'm a little taken aback by this statement. Because, well, it is like saying, diffusion doesn't happen at all... But ok...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/40#post_3418427
Smarty pants lol. BTW something about ulns levels have been bugging me. If nutrient levels in the ocean are so low how is it that sps and macro are able to occupy some of the same realestate in reefs?
I'm firmly a believer of this idea that the oceans aren't as "fragile" as the people wanting to make a living on your donations claim them to be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418733
Are you guys using dump buckets or trickling water over the screen?
Probably using it for their coolaid...
Look, this is what I think, ABSOLUTELY, does macro, and micro fauna growth, help with nutrient absorption. Manually removing it, into a collection cup works too...
That being said, santa monica's pie in the sky claims are rediculous. I don't think the scale that have been perscribed is enough to address this nutrient issue in our tanks. Remember as discussed we're talking a 90% flora to 10% fauna ratio.
Have you guys actually used one before, back in the day, I ran one...
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/339450/algae-mat-filter
Basically my conclusion was, it helped, my expectations were 0 and I got 4 out of 10 back...
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium#post_3418333
Protein skimmers have not been proven to add any dissolved oxygen to the water column. DO measurements at the input and output of protein skimmers are almost exactly the same. (article pending)
I'm a little taken aback by this statement. Because, well, it is like saying, diffusion doesn't happen at all... But ok...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/40#post_3418427
Smarty pants lol. BTW something about ulns levels have been bugging me. If nutrient levels in the ocean are so low how is it that sps and macro are able to occupy some of the same realestate in reefs?
I'm firmly a believer of this idea that the oceans aren't as "fragile" as the people wanting to make a living on your donations claim them to be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418733
Are you guys using dump buckets or trickling water over the screen?
Probably using it for their coolaid...
Look, this is what I think, ABSOLUTELY, does macro, and micro fauna growth, help with nutrient absorption. Manually removing it, into a collection cup works too...
That being said, santa monica's pie in the sky claims are rediculous. I don't think the scale that have been perscribed is enough to address this nutrient issue in our tanks. Remember as discussed we're talking a 90% flora to 10% fauna ratio.
Have you guys actually used one before, back in the day, I ran one...
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/339450/algae-mat-filter
Basically my conclusion was, it helped, my expectations were 0 and I got 4 out of 10 back...
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418733
Are you guys using dump buckets or trickling water over the screen?
Going with a modern style scrubber Henry. Dump bucket style scrubbers are big, bulky, noisy and stinky. Not something I want in my living room. I haven't ran it yet since the system isn't complete as of yet. Getting there. Been playing around fine tuning the design and flow a little bit though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418744
Here is a link to a bit more information on my attempt.
Looks like we're not the only ones who drank the coolaid lol.
Seeing as how links to other forums aren't allowed and I'm sure it will be taken down if Micheal see's it I was wondering if you could post all your specs on that design since I didn't see any. A couple of things that I spot right off the bat is that the scrubber looked inadequately designed for the task it was up against in the first place. But more info is needed. System size, screen size, flow rate, light type, wattage and spectrum. Those all play critical rolls. Also, how long did you run it for? Problems as severe as those could take upto several monthes to clear up.
Seeing as how you built that quite a few years ago you probably built it going by the initial modern standards which have since been continually refined. Whether you believe what santa monica spouts out as being truth is entirely up to the individual. I haven't ran a scrubber yet but I can tell you that his innitial information was on the right track it just wasn't quite complete yet. I'm not a fan of the guy so I could care less what people think but I can tell you that the information he has been puting out there is nothing new. What is not commonly understood by the vast majority of hobbyist in terms of algae filtration is pretty much comon knowledge among marine biologist and has been explained in great detail in many published works over the decades. So this is by no means some new fangled invention. People some how though have got it in their heads that a scrubber is going to be the magic bullet that solves all of their problems.
We don't have many long term scrubber users here so the only reason I post on this thread is because I've spent a good chunk of the last year or so reading about these things from every source of info I could find. Popularity is booming, there isn't a site online anymore where you cant find at least a few folks running them. But it's just like any form of filtration device that you use. It's only as good as the end user. Scrubbers don't fix a lack of research and they certainly don't fix poor design or a lack of maintanance. And they do have limits just as anything.
Also streb: The 90% flora to 10% fauna ratio was in terms of the mass of the oceans and not particularly just reefs. The other info posted above spoke about a 3-1 ratio of flora to fauna in reefs. When ever you have a lot of people doing something you're going to see successes and failures. I would encourage anyone who's thinking about running one to do more homework, seek out the folks who are having success and find out what they're doing. Read about the ones who aren't and find out what they're doing wrong.
I'm not here to knock skimmers, infact I'm going to puchase one for my current build and run both. But misconceptions of what algae filters are capable of are common despite the vast number of successfully scrubbed tanks now. And the idea of it being a futile attempt to try and replicate nature is not the type of attitude that leads to advancements IMO. It is our understanding of nature and attempts to mimic it that has gotten us this far already.
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418733
Are you guys using dump buckets or trickling water over the screen?
Going with a modern style scrubber Henry. Dump bucket style scrubbers are big, bulky, noisy and stinky. Not something I want in my living room. I haven't ran it yet since the system isn't complete as of yet. Getting there. Been playing around fine tuning the design and flow a little bit though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418744
Here is a link to a bit more information on my attempt.
Looks like we're not the only ones who drank the coolaid lol.
Seeing as how links to other forums aren't allowed and I'm sure it will be taken down if Micheal see's it I was wondering if you could post all your specs on that design since I didn't see any. A couple of things that I spot right off the bat is that the scrubber looked inadequately designed for the task it was up against in the first place. But more info is needed. System size, screen size, flow rate, light type, wattage and spectrum. Those all play critical rolls. Also, how long did you run it for? Problems as severe as those could take upto several monthes to clear up.
Seeing as how you built that quite a few years ago you probably built it going by the initial modern standards which have since been continually refined. Whether you believe what santa monica spouts out as being truth is entirely up to the individual. I haven't ran a scrubber yet but I can tell you that his innitial information was on the right track it just wasn't quite complete yet. I'm not a fan of the guy so I could care less what people think but I can tell you that the information he has been puting out there is nothing new. What is not commonly understood by the vast majority of hobbyist in terms of algae filtration is pretty much comon knowledge among marine biologist and has been explained in great detail in many published works over the decades. So this is by no means some new fangled invention. People some how though have got it in their heads that a scrubber is going to be the magic bullet that solves all of their problems.
We don't have many long term scrubber users here so the only reason I post on this thread is because I've spent a good chunk of the last year or so reading about these things from every source of info I could find. Popularity is booming, there isn't a site online anymore where you cant find at least a few folks running them. But it's just like any form of filtration device that you use. It's only as good as the end user. Scrubbers don't fix a lack of research and they certainly don't fix poor design or a lack of maintanance. And they do have limits just as anything.
Also streb: The 90% flora to 10% fauna ratio was in terms of the mass of the oceans and not particularly just reefs. The other info posted above spoke about a 3-1 ratio of flora to fauna in reefs. When ever you have a lot of people doing something you're going to see successes and failures. I would encourage anyone who's thinking about running one to do more homework, seek out the folks who are having success and find out what they're doing. Read about the ones who aren't and find out what they're doing wrong.
I'm not here to knock skimmers, infact I'm going to puchase one for my current build and run both. But misconceptions of what algae filters are capable of are common despite the vast number of successfully scrubbed tanks now. And the idea of it being a futile attempt to try and replicate nature is not the type of attitude that leads to advancements IMO. It is our understanding of nature and attempts to mimic it that has gotten us this far already.
stdreb27
Active Member
(notice they have to actually check the hyperlink...
) But hopefully they won't get too mad about it...
Oh I don't remember what the specs were. Flow was my entire overflow, probably around 500 gph. (That tank hasn't been up for a while) I was running a PC light, probably in the 7-10k range, "comparable to the 100 watt bulb". Santa Monica claims 1 sq inch per gallon. That was a 58 gallon tank, and that was a 14 x 8 ish piece of mat. I'm not going to wait a months to see if something might work...
It did help stabilize the levels in the tank (but as with the bountiful algae in the tank, that was never an issue), lowered the temps (always an issue), and algae did recede in the tank. (I did continue running a skimmer). The water clarity was never an issue. But as far as filtration no one has shown anything showing that it is more effective than a fuge, with chaeto or some other floating algae. I think it would have to be significantly ramped up. 3-4 mats something more enclosed, (salt creep was a mess) plus I'd have to figure out a better way to spray water on the mats.
IMO has the same place as a fluidized sand bend, in a filtration system. It does pull crap out of the water. But it is a bugger to mess with...
Another thing, and most importantly I'm not convinced that it won't spread to the rest of the tank. You stick an algae mat that every drop of water flows through, why is it going to only stay on that mat? What is keeping that algae there? Not a dang thing...
Oh I don't remember what the specs were. Flow was my entire overflow, probably around 500 gph. (That tank hasn't been up for a while) I was running a PC light, probably in the 7-10k range, "comparable to the 100 watt bulb". Santa Monica claims 1 sq inch per gallon. That was a 58 gallon tank, and that was a 14 x 8 ish piece of mat. I'm not going to wait a months to see if something might work...
It did help stabilize the levels in the tank (but as with the bountiful algae in the tank, that was never an issue), lowered the temps (always an issue), and algae did recede in the tank. (I did continue running a skimmer). The water clarity was never an issue. But as far as filtration no one has shown anything showing that it is more effective than a fuge, with chaeto or some other floating algae. I think it would have to be significantly ramped up. 3-4 mats something more enclosed, (salt creep was a mess) plus I'd have to figure out a better way to spray water on the mats.
IMO has the same place as a fluidized sand bend, in a filtration system. It does pull crap out of the water. But it is a bugger to mess with...
Another thing, and most importantly I'm not convinced that it won't spread to the rest of the tank. You stick an algae mat that every drop of water flows through, why is it going to only stay on that mat? What is keeping that algae there? Not a dang thing...
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Sure... what is keeping it there is a high flow rate and favorable light conditions. Algae that is exposed to 2700k light for 16 hours a day and a high flow rate is much more favorable condition than our standard 8 hour display tank lights in the 10 to 20k range, and less flow. Your just giving the algae a favorable condition and it latches on to the screen and stays there because that's where it's most comfortable at.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418799
(notice they have to actually check the hyperlink...
) But hopefully they won't get too mad about it...Well I ain't gonna tell em.
Oh I don't remember what the specs were. Flow was my entire overflow, probably around 500 gph. (That tank hasn't been up for a while) I was running a PC light, probably in the 7-10k range, "comparable to the 100 watt bulb". Santa Monica claims 1 sq inch per gallon. That was a 58 gallon tank, and that was a 14 x 8 ish piece of mat. I'm not going to wait a months to see if something might work...You were good on screen size and flow. But your lighting was under the minimum for medium scrubber filtering capabilities, especially with that much flow. When using compact bulbs the recommendation is to go by actual watts not equivalent watts. For full filtering capabilities by today's standards you should have been running a minumum of 58 actual watts. I believe you had a single 23w bulb. And the wrong spectrum at that. Just sayin. Sayin that it looked like an algae bomb went off in your tank lol.
It did help stabilize the levels in the tank (but as with the bountiful algae in the tank, that was never an issue), lowered the temps (always an issue), and algae did recede in the tank. (I did continue running a skimmer). The water clarity was never an issue. But as far as filtration no one has shown anything showing that it is more effective than a fuge, with chaeto or some other floating algae. I think it would have to be significantly ramped up. 3-4 mats something more enclosed, (salt creep was a mess) plus I'd have to figure out a better way to spray water on the mats. I'm leaning towards the idea that your scrubber never really got half the chance to prove what it could have been capable of.
IMO has the same place as a fluidized sand bend, in a filtration system. It does pull crap out of the water. But it is a bugger to mess with... I think there are easier ways, but having the space to do so is an issue for a lot of folks it seems.
Another thing, and most importantly I'm not convinced that it won't spread to the rest of the tank. You stick an algae mat that every drop of water flows through, why is it going to only stay on that mat? What is keeping that algae there? Not a dang thing... I haven't seen this happen yet. And if it does, it will probably just die off. Need to make sure you rough up that screen real good from what I understand, good maintenance and it won't be an issue. Just my thoughts. Remember, I'm not expert...I'm just here talking trash. :/
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///t/387985/turf-scrubber-or-protein-skimmer-which-is-more-beneficial-to-the-aquarium/60#post_3418799
(notice they have to actually check the hyperlink...
Oh I don't remember what the specs were. Flow was my entire overflow, probably around 500 gph. (That tank hasn't been up for a while) I was running a PC light, probably in the 7-10k range, "comparable to the 100 watt bulb". Santa Monica claims 1 sq inch per gallon. That was a 58 gallon tank, and that was a 14 x 8 ish piece of mat. I'm not going to wait a months to see if something might work...You were good on screen size and flow. But your lighting was under the minimum for medium scrubber filtering capabilities, especially with that much flow. When using compact bulbs the recommendation is to go by actual watts not equivalent watts. For full filtering capabilities by today's standards you should have been running a minumum of 58 actual watts. I believe you had a single 23w bulb. And the wrong spectrum at that. Just sayin. Sayin that it looked like an algae bomb went off in your tank lol.
It did help stabilize the levels in the tank (but as with the bountiful algae in the tank, that was never an issue), lowered the temps (always an issue), and algae did recede in the tank. (I did continue running a skimmer). The water clarity was never an issue. But as far as filtration no one has shown anything showing that it is more effective than a fuge, with chaeto or some other floating algae. I think it would have to be significantly ramped up. 3-4 mats something more enclosed, (salt creep was a mess) plus I'd have to figure out a better way to spray water on the mats. I'm leaning towards the idea that your scrubber never really got half the chance to prove what it could have been capable of.
IMO has the same place as a fluidized sand bend, in a filtration system. It does pull crap out of the water. But it is a bugger to mess with... I think there are easier ways, but having the space to do so is an issue for a lot of folks it seems.
Another thing, and most importantly I'm not convinced that it won't spread to the rest of the tank. You stick an algae mat that every drop of water flows through, why is it going to only stay on that mat? What is keeping that algae there? Not a dang thing... I haven't seen this happen yet. And if it does, it will probably just die off. Need to make sure you rough up that screen real good from what I understand, good maintenance and it won't be an issue. Just my thoughts. Remember, I'm not expert...I'm just here talking trash. :/
