two minor questions.....hope you can help

[brettschwartz]

Currently I own a 46gal bow dront tank housing the following marine fish:
1 - damsel
1- pecula clown
1 - saddle back butterfly
1 - Cream angel
1- panther grouper
1- hermit crab (very small)
1 - coral banded shrimp
1 - choc. chip star fish
Everything seems to be fine (testing wise)
pH - 8.4
salt level: 1.23ppm
nitrite: 0.0
nitrate: 0.0
ammo - .25
So as you can see the levels look pretty normal for the exception of a little ammonia......To correct this I know a water change or ammo lock will nullify the problem. Anyway, my question is this, my choc. chip star, for the past two to three weeks it's not eatting atall... I used to go up to about 4-5days ant it would eat freezed dried krill like there was no tomorrow.... now it could care less about eatting.... it's moving around the take continuiosly... I see not abrasions, nothing out of the ordinary...... what do you think is wrong? I do have frozen brine, and protein cubes 9forgot what they are called). Al the other fish and inverts and eatting like freakin pigs but him........ my panther is eating whole krill now as well.....Any idea what's going on or what I should do? Would it be agood idea to test phosphate levels? I know thats for inverts but correct me if I'm wrong the starfis is an invert correct?
One other thing...... the cream angel, I'm beginning to notife a change in it's color, it's slightly a faded white color, BUT again, he's eatting awesome.......would this be because of the ammon ia level? could it be a beginning disease ? any ideas?
Please advise..
thanks
Brett

 

[calbert0]

you need a bigger tank. Some of those fish are going to get BIG.

 

[brettschwartz]

great answer.... I'm gonna go out and buy another tank......I don't thinkso...
c'mon you gotta have a better answer then that... these fish are SMALL.. there is PLENTY of room in this tank..... I know my limits, I used to work for my dad in a pet shop, I know my limits for fish........ just not "best practices" for marine fish....

 

[ophiura]

If you bought all of these fish at an LFS, and they willingly sold it to you, I am afraid you have a very bad one.
Many of these fish are not suitable for your tank. But in the end, the panther grouper will eat them all...
Do not use ammo lock. A tank with a decent biological filter should handle that ammonia well. But if it is overstocked (which it may be) and overfed (which it sounds like it is) ) and underfiltered, it can be a big issue. Phosphate leads to algae problems. Do you have algae problems?
What filtration do you have? How old is the tank:? Do you have a skimmer? What is your alkalinity reading? What test kits do you use? How much and how often do you feed? What is your water change schedule?
Your specific gravity, is getting stressfully low for a seastar and should be 1.025-1.026. What do you use to measure it?
It is valid, IMO, for people to say you are overstocked irrespective of how big the fish are. Marine fish should be stocked by adult size. Certainly they are eating big from the sound of it. So I am afraid I do have to agree with the tank size. If not a bigger tank, I suggest trading some in and buying fish suitable for the tank size. The grouper is not a slow growing fish, and ultimately will need 200+ gallons.

 

[brettschwartz]

my apologies for that last message...... I agree.... they will get bigger, but as of right now, again, there is plenty of room in the tank, if they get bigger great, I'll upgrade or just sell the fish off..........
Again, I respect your answer, and I apologize for the nasty remark.

 

[brettschwartz]

in the mean time, can we focus on my two questions...
star fish not eatting and slight discoloration of my angel?
any recommendations?

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by brettschwartz
http:///forum/post/3167392
in the mean time, can we focus on my two questions...
star fish not eatting and slight discoloration of my angel?
any recommendations?
I think you should re-read Ophiura's post.....answer her questions, and let her help you......
she knows what she is talking about, and has already made some suggestions for you
good luck with your tank

 

[brettschwartz]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/3167383
If you bought all of these fish at an LFS, and they willingly sold it to you, I am afraid you have a very bad one.
Many of these fish are not suitable for your tank. But in the end, the panther grouper will eat them all...
well aware of the grouper and the life of the shrimp and crabs possible life loss..... (totally agree, and overall, don't care)
Do not use ammo lock. A tank with a decent biological filter should handle that ammonia well. But if it is overstocked (which it may be) and overfed (which it sounds like it is) ) and underfiltered, it can be a big issue. Phosphate leads to algae problems. Do you have algae problems?
no algea problems at all
What filtration do you have? How old is the tank:? Do you have a skimmer? What is your alkalinity reading? What test kits do you use? How much and how often do you feed? What is your water change schedule?
tank is two years old......I'm using Aquarium farmacutical s/w delux test kit for marine tanks....
nitrites, nitrates, ammo, and high Ph it does..... Salinity tester is oceanic tester......so saying that, I sould raise the salt level, no problem......

Your specific gravity, is getting stressfully low for a seastar and should be 1.025-1.026. What do you use to measure it?
It is valid, IMO, for people to say you are overstocked irrespective of how big the fish are. Marine fish should be stocked by adult size. Certainly they are eating big from the sound of it. So I am afraid I do have to agree with the tank size. If not a bigger tank, I suggest trading some in and buying fish suitable for the tank size. The grouper is not a slow growing fish, and ultimately will need 200+ gallons.
totally understand the fate of the grouper......bought it knowing all this.........again, right now the grouper is roughly 2-3in in length..... if in a 6-12month time frame and I feel it's getting to big, I'l deal with it then

 

[brettschwartz]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3167396
I think you should re-read Ophiura's post.....answer her questions, and let her help you......
she knows what she is talking about, and has already made some suggestions for you
good luck with your tank
just posted answers..... and correct I will.... thanks!

 

[shrimpy brains]

Please, don't take it personally, but I alsoo have a few questions. The questions are to get a better understanding of your situation and allow better answers to your question.
Well, my biggest concern would be the ammonia and what caused it. Is it common for you to have ammonia readings in this tank? Have you had anything die recently? I would also like to know your feeding schedule and what kind of filtration on your tank. Do you have a skimmer? How often and how much do you do water changes? Is this a fish only or a reef tank?
Is your oceanic tester for salinity a hydrometer? The reason for this question, is that hydrometers are known to be very inaccurate, and the recommendation would be to buy a refractometer to get a truer reading.
As far as the angel is concerned, I don't know about this fish and whether it is common for it to change color as it ages or gets stressed, etc. You might try a google search for info on this.
For the chocalate chip star, maybe you could try some food more to his liking. Do you have access to fresh seafood where you live? You could get some fresh shrimp, scallops, etc. and try feeding him. I try to get things like this on a regular basis to give all my fish/inverts some variety.
Also, brine shrimp doesn't have much nutritious value. I would recommend you get some frozen mysis shrimp. Hope this helps.

 

[brettschwartz]

Originally Posted by Shrimpy Brains
http:///forum/post/3167469

Please, don't take it personally, but I alsoo have a few questions. The questions are to get a better understanding of your situation and allow better answers to your question.
Well, my biggest concern would be the ammonia and what caused it. Is it common for you to have ammonia readings in this tank? Have you had anything die recently? I would also like to know your feeding schedule and what kind of filtration on your tank. Do you have a skimmer? How often and how much do you do water changes? Is this a fish only or a reef tank?
Is your oceanic tester for salinity a hydrometer? The reason for this question, is that hydrometers are known to be very inaccurate, and the recommendation would be to buy a refractometer to get a truer reading.
As far as the angel is concerned, I don't know about this fish and whether it is common for it to change color as it ages or gets stressed, etc. You might try a google search for info on this.
For the chocalate chip star, maybe you could try some food more to his liking. Do you have access to fresh seafood where you live? You could get some fresh shrimp, scallops, etc. and try feeding him. I try to get things like this on a regular basis to give all my fish/inverts some variety.
Also, brine shrimp doesn't have much nutritious value. I would recommend you get some frozen mysis shrimp. Hope this helps.

My goodness why would take these questions to offense.... these are great questions....... to answer.... using a Penplax canister filter (1000 series). In addition, no protein skimmer, I thought this would be good to get only if you have live rock / reefs? I mean if that is the case, I have nothing to lose but adding this...... Never tried fresh seafood..... I'll give that a try.......Yes, it's an oceanic hydrometer.... never heard of the other salitinty tester, I'll assume it;s expensive etc..... where would I find this?
Feeding schedule.... use formula one in the morning (sm pellets) and in the evening I'll mix up brozen brine one night the next I'll use a protein cube for marine fish, In addition, I'll put a clip of romain lettuce in the tank for a day or dried algae sheet.

 

[shrimpy brains]

Hmmm...never had a fish only tank. I just assumed you would have live rock. You might consider adding some as it is a great natural filter, and the beneficial bacteria that it will house should help with the ammonia. Just a thought, not saying it's needed since you have been running this tank for 2 years without it.
I'm actually surprised that your readings (ammonia, nitrates, nitrites) aren't extremely high. Do you do large water changes often??
In my opinion, a protien skimmer is still valueble as it removes waste, which occurs in all tanks.
As far as the refractometer is concerned, I have heard people say they have spent much more on theirs, but I got mine for $20. Can't say where on here, but look into auction sites. It's definitily worth it as the wrong salinity could be hazardous to your star, other inverts, and your fish.
Hope the fresh seafood works for your star. I'm hoping that the problem is the krill. I find I get laughed at alittle when I only get 1 scallop, but most times they don't even charge me fo it!!

 

[browniebuck]

I would agree that Live Rock would help to keep your levels in check, though I thought you would have had problems before the 2 year point.
I agree with the others regarding your star...try to vary what it gets fed so that feeding time remains an adventure (they would eat whatever they came across in the wild).

 

[brettschwartz]

You guys are not going to believe this, tonight I was gonna go feed the klan of fish....
Panther grouper, Angel, and butterfly,.... ALL DEAD.......
I AM VERY disapointed..... I did NOTHING but check levels yesterday...... I don't F'n get it.......
I ended up doin a 25% water change..... set salinity to 1.023-24 PPM..... I'm tired of all this happening...... I'm so disapointed right now......
Thank you so much for the suggestions...... I'm going to look into the live rock, protein skimmer and the other salt level tool (forgot what it was called).... Now that I'll have live rock, how do I keep this stuff....I NEVER used this before...... no idea what to do for maintaining, testing, etc.......
Also, as for a potein skimmer, what would you recommend..... not looking for something that will break the bank.
Brett

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by brettschwartz
http:///forum/post/3167912
I'm going to look into the live rock, protein skimmer and the other salt level tool (forgot what it was called).... Now that I'll have live rock, how do I keep this stuff....I NEVER used this before...... no idea what to do for maintaining, testing, etc.......
Really hope appropriate stocking makes that list as well?

 

[shrimpy brains]

I am so sorry you lost your fish.

A water change should not cause this to happen. Did you premix the water? What is your water source?
Also, I know you are not new to saltwater, but I am including this thread. I find it very helpful and refer to it often. It has many threas, all stickied together, including info on the cycle, live rock, why to buy a refractometer, etc. Lots of awesome info. Hope it helps.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/264597/a-list-of-extremely-helpful-threads-for-all-hobbyists

 

[brettschwartz]

clarification...... They died before I did the water change........ last night I did the water change (after they died.... my clown and damsel are what's left for fish.......
Last night the clown (before water change) was breath rapid at the top of the tank......) It was as if all of a sudden there was an ammonia spike I've seen this type of behavior after the water change (25%) roughly an hour later, they ALL seemed to be much happier..... especially the damsel , he was digging out his new home..... (too funny too..... he's the only one that likes to dig after I do a water change (due to gravel cleaning)
I'm thinking I'm really over feeding overall........I keep telling my wife to not give too much pellets in the AM, and at night when I use a protein cube it's pretty much a 1/2 to whole cude used every other day........ I'm betting money it's me and over feeding.... I'm sure all of you are going to chastis me on this, (and you know what, I deserve it) So please be gentle......

 

[meowzer]

If overfeeding was an issue you would have algae issues....I have no clue what could have killed your fish so fast since youa re saying "everything" was NORMAL.....
WOuld you happen to have a full tank shot of this tank?????

 

[shrimpy brains]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3168106
If overfeeding was an issue you would have algae issues....I have no clue what could have killed your fish so fast since youa re saying "everything" was NORMAL.....
WOuld you happen to have a full tank shot of this tank?????
I agree with Meowzer. Maybe the trouble with the cc star was just the first sign of a bigger issue with the tank.
My advise would be to read the thread I posted above. Learn about live rock and it's benefits. Take it slowly. I would not try to replace these fish right away. In the meantime, this is a good place to get advice and ideas on what direction you want to take with this tank, since you are now basically starting over. Once again, I am very sorry about you loss and wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

 

[brettschwartz]

Ended up buying the following protein skimmer.....
Red Sea Prizm Deluxe Hang-On Skimmer
and I'll then begin to buy live rock........ thankyou EVERYONE for your thoughts.........I GREASTLY appreciate it!