Unsolvable Dilemmna? Please HELP!

bheron

bheron

Member
Ok, I had this problem about 3 months ago and posted a message. Still, it's happening....
I have a 75 gal tank about 7 months old. 3 months ago after I fully cycled and put in some LR and a few damsels everythying looked stable. So I bought 10 snails, an anemone, and an urchin. A little too aggresive - they ALL died within 24 hours!!! Actually, as soon as I dropped them in the tank they were noticabbly stressed. The snails never even moved!!! The urchin slowly lost spines and eventually died. I acclimated them correctly - over about 2 hours floated the bags then slowly dripped in water from my tank. I also bought a cinnamon clown that day he was fine - is still lving. So are the damsels originally.
Here are/were my readings:
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = in recommended safe range
Temp and salinity = perfect always
PH = 8.6 rangish
So, from the feedback I received, I thought it must be the really high PH. I've tried to lower it with chemicals from LSF but that didnt work at all. Then I realized when I use my Tap Water Conditioner/stress coat on my RO water it caused really high PH. So over the past three months I've been topping off with straight, plain, RO water (has really low PH). Over this time the PH hasnt changed much, but has dropped to about 8.5.
So this time, I take it easy and simply but 1 snail. After acclimation, I drop him in and he NEVER MOVES from the spot where he fell!!!!!!
PLease, what is going on here? I've been doing water changes on schedule. Water is clear, same 4 fish have been alive for 3-7 months. Have lost a couple others though previously, but nothing in last 3 months. Someone mentioned Copper? I also have plenty of LR. I have crushed coral base. Tank was begun 7 months ago with mostly brand new equipment.
Why are fish living fine but no a snail? What am I missing?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
 
dburr

dburr

Active Member
Is every thing new in the tank? CC, tank, rock, ect...(you did say mostly all new)
If so, then it's highly unlikely it's copper.
Temp and S.G. are perfect?? What is perfect to you?
I keep mine at 79 and 1.025.
Why do you use water conditioner on RO? RO removes 75% of impurites. You don't really need to condition the water.
Did you do a big water change after you stopped using the conditioner? It would take many weeks to get the PH down doing only 10% a week.
Snails don't like rapid change, maybe acclimate them longer.
Any chance eletrical current in their?
Other than this stuff, I don't know.
HTH
 
S

sebae0

Guest
are they turbo snails? when you dropped them in which side up did they land? turbos cant right themselves if they fall on their backs, try to place them in the tank on a rock or something with them the right side down.
 
jedininja

jedininja

Member
You said you had this tank for 7 months and it has been cycled for 3. What were you doing with it for the few months prior? Is it a brand new tank or did you switch over from FW?
For once, I think SuperElvisa has a point. It might be copper. Your fishes seem fine, but all your inverts are dieing. Copper is one of the worst poisons possible to inverts.
 
demosthenes

demosthenes

Active Member
Yeah, sorry to sound like a broken record, but IMO it definitely seems to be Copper. I've never had to deal with it, so I can't, off the top of my head, suggest any ways to combat it, but maybe you could do a search, or a more educated member could help you out.
 
sterling

sterling

Member
I agree with several points.
First: Copper. If when you put the fish in you also added the water from their shipping bag. LFS often treat their tanks with copper and you could have introduced it that way.
Second: I learned the hard way with snails also, they need to be put in right-side-up. You can't just dump them in and hope they can right themselves. If they're upside down they can "drown". Seems weird but true.
If I were you, I would purchase a Copper Test Kit and see what that tells you. Then check back and let us know.
 
pmauro

pmauro

Member
Do you know if you have copper pipes in your house? Maybe; if it is copper; it could be the source. a lot of older homes were plumbed with copper pipes that degrade over time. maybe I should check for copper myself.
 
broomer5

broomer5

Active Member
pH 8.6 is HIGH
The bags of store saltwater that we bring our fish and inverts home in is normally much lower pH by the time we get home.
The bags of saltwater that fish and inverts are shipped to us in - is normally much lower in pH as well.
Even after doing an extended acclimation - it's possible that by introducing these inverts into a tank with pH of 8.6 - will cause a pH shock ~ and kill them.
Inverts are even more sensitive to changes in pH.
Fish - although are still sensitive - may be able to adjust.
If you have AMMONIA in the tank - and you have elevated pH above 8.5ish - this ammonia is far more toxic than the form of ammonia that exists in a tank with lower/normal pH.
I have a feeling that your inverts are dying from either
pH shock directly OR pH shock with ammonia toxicity combined.
I think you need to figure out why your pH is up around 8.6
Assuming your pH test kit is accurate, and your pH is actually up around 8.6 ~ this is not normal ~ and should be a clear indication that something is not right with your tankwater.
I thought it must be the really high PH. I've tried to lower it with chemicals from LSF but that didnt work at all.
What chemicals have you added to your tank ?
 
ophiura

ophiura

Active Member
I agree that there is something not right with that pH, especially if you are using RO water for top off and (I assume) for making your salt water.
IMO, I wouldn't use the store bought chemicals to lower pH when it can be done by water changes with good RO. Many of them will not work, depending on the cause of your high pH, and you could be introducing chemicals you may not want in a reef tank. It may also not be solving what could be a long term problem.
What is the pH of your RO water? What is the pH of your regular tap water?
I have never heard of tap water conditioner making the pH shoot up so high...I think if it was actually the tap water conditioner, the manufacturer would be out of business, because that could kill many many delicate fish (low pH freshwater). I mean, it is just not common to see pH that high, and I have tested a lot of water with water conditioners in it.
What sort of test kit are you using, and is the LFS finding the same reading?
What other additives are you putting in the tank (eg any buffers?).
If there are major differences between LFS pH and yours, then I agree that 2 hours would not be a long enough acclimation for them. If you don't find any copper, pH could definitely be an issue.
 
bheron

bheron

Member
I love this place. Everybody is SO helpful here. Sorry, I was away from my PC for the holidays and just got a chance to respond to all of the questions. Please read on and hopefully I’ll be on my way to solving my problem. Thank you in advance!!!
Questions posted to me What other additives are you putting in the tank (eg any buffers?). about my problem………
Q: Is every thing new in the tank? CC, tank, rock, ect...(you did say mostly all new)
-A: not everything actually. My wet/dry trickle unit sat in the basement, along with the little bacteria balls, for a couple of years dry and unused. My LSF said that wouldn’t matter. Does it, maybe?
Q: Temp and S.G. are perfect?? What is perfect to you?
I keep mine at 79 and 1.025.
-A: mine are at the same levels: 79-80 and 1.024
Q: Why do you use water conditioner on RO? RO removes 75% of impurites. You don't really need to condition the water.
-A:Thank you! I have stopped doing this. Was given by my LSF
Q: Are they turbo snails? when you dropped them in which side up did they land? turbos cant right themselves if they fall on their backs,
-A: Nope. Made sure they were right side up. They never moved from that position which makes me think they were shocked.
Q: You said you had this tank for 7 months and it has been cycled for 3. What were you doing with it for the few months prior? Is it a brand new tank or did you switch over from FW?
-A: Tank itself was brand new. Cycled for 3 months, had only fish for 4 months. Then tried the inverts.
Q: First: Copper. If when you put the fish in you also added the water from their shipping bag. LFS often treat their tanks with copper and you could have introduced it that way.
-A: No. I acclimated them and tyhen scooped them into my tank. I’ve been burned by bad LSF water before.
Q: Do you know if you have copper pipes in your house? Maybe; if it is copper; it could be the source. a lot of older homes were plumbed with copper pipes that degrade over time. maybe I should check for copper myself.
-A: I have no idea, actually. My house is only about 7 years old, but all the water I used to fill my tank came from a faucet I have in my finished basement!!! I never thought of it but maybe THAT’S! the problem?! I know now I should’ve RO water when filling my tank for the first time.
Q: If you have AMMONIA in the tank - and you have elevated pH above 8.5ish - this ammonia is far more toxic than the form of ammonia that exists in a tank with lower/normal pH.
-A: No ammonia
Q: I think you need to figure out why your pH is up around 8.6
-A: I asked before here on the site and nobody knew how. I asked my LSF and they gave me this stuff “Proper PH 8.2 – perfect for Salt Water, Brackfish, and African Cichlid Aquariums” made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. I didn’t worK!!!
Q: I agree that there is something not right with that pH, especially if you are using RO water for top off and (I assume) for making your salt water.
A: - Yes
Q: What is the pH of your RO water? What is the pH of your regular tap water?
-A: RO Water: around 6.8-7.0
-A: Tap Water: 8.8
br />-A: This is why I figured after doing a 20% change with straight RO water (on a 75% gal) that the PH would’ve dropped at least a little bit, but it didn’t.
-A: The PH of the RO water jumped up once I added the Salt Mixture from my LSF. Could it possibly be that??
Q: What sort of test kit are you using?
-A: I’m using a Dry-Tab by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals
Q: What other additives are you putting in the tank (eg any buffers?).
-A: None
So it sounds like it could be a couple of things:
1)Copper – I bought the Copper Dry Tab Refils but they didn’t come with a test strip. Is there anywhere I can see a color strip without buying an entire kit? What should the proper reading be?
2)High PH – how do I lower it? Right now my only hope is to keep doing water changes periodically and hope the original tap tap water is gradually replaced by the RO water.
3)Bad equipment – could it possibly be that I shouldn’t have used my old wet/dry trickle and bacteria balls that were in my basement for 4 years?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thank you!
 
ophiura

ophiura

Active Member
So you use your RO water to make up your salt water, and that is about 6.8.
Then you add your salt mix and this brings the pH up to 8.6? Of course salt mixes will bring the Ph up, but usually to the 'normal' range.
That is strange. What brand of salt mix is it?
I suppose that something could have gotten into the wet/dry bioballs- dust or something, and caused trouble as well.
Hmmm.
 
dburr

dburr

Active Member
That propa ph crap ain't worth the bottle they put it in, IMO.:D
It only works for 24 hours and shoots back to where it was.:( :mad:
You said the PH jumped up when you add salt to the RO. Jumped to what, 8.6? If it only jumped to 8.2, maybe your tank is still not mature enough. It takes time and every tank is different. It may take more time to stablize. Yes it is high, but you said you have no ammonia. A PH that high wont kill inverts if properly acclimized, IMO. I would go 3 hours or more with a slow drip method.
Copper should read 0.. Your house is pretty new, doubt that is it.
As stated above, salt raises PH of RO to normal levels, 8.2 +/-.
A wet/dry sitting around wont hurt as long as you cleaned it. (and no chemicals were in it during storage)
 
bheron

bheron

Member
Thanks.
- I'll have to check on the salt mix brand, but it looked like a type I've seen before. Maybe its tainted. I'm doing a water change tomorrow so I'll test it accurately.
- Acclimating a snail for 3 hours? Wow, the first time I only did it for about 2 hours and thought that was enough. I'll try that.
- Now I know the copper should be zero so I can test for that tonight. I guess "zero" means the water should be clear?
- Wet/Dry had no chemicals and was cleaned before I used it.
- Live rock: actually I forgot to mention that it doesn't appear to be growing anything - even the one I got 7 months ago. In fact, I get the feeling that they lose growth after a few weeks in my tank. The new Fiji I put in periodically actually looks better when I first put it in than it does after a few weeks. I also have some green (not hairy) algage that sometimes covers the rocks - which is why I got the snails in the first place!!! Maybe that's a clue?
I'll update when I do my water change tomorrow night.
Thanks!
 
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