Velvet with sideways swimming??

[vesuvan]

I have a Juvi Koran Angel, that appears to have velvet. I have begun treatment with nox-ich which has had good success in stopping ich and velvet according to my LFS. The same day I began treatment , the angel began to float in the corner of the tank swimming at about a 60 degree angle in small circles. The other fish in the tank seem to be fine, still eating and behaving normally. I am wondering if the fish swimming on its side associated with velvet, or if its not velvet at all but something else...There is a live sand bottom, but no live rock in the tank at all.
Tank Specs:
20gal
76-79 degrees
Powerglow 18K lighting
Elite Hush 35 filter set to around medium/light flow
1.021-1.023 salinity
8.2-8.4 pH
Live Florida Keys Sand
all metal tests came back at 0
ammonia, nitrate and nitrites are all at normal
Lighting stays on from 7am-10pm
Other fish in tank: 2 small percula clowns, and turbo snails
Diet: The tank recieves frozen brine and marine flakes once daily.
Here are some horrible camera phone pictures of the angel
Swimming on its side in a circle

Velvet on Head

Slight velvet on side of head

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated

 

[beth]

What makes you think this fish has velvet? Give precise symptoms on the body, breathing hard, etc?

 

[vesuvan]

Over its face and side of its head has little tiny red powder like things. As if it is covered in a red dust. A friend from the LFS came and looked at him and said that it was velvet. Reading online from all the descriptions of ich and velvet, it sounds to be the same thing, until this swimming sideways, which is what peaked my concern as it being something else. It had the common symptoms of darting around the rocks like someone had just tapped on the glass, but now it just makes slow circles in a 5 inch area. Its breathing is normal as it has been since I first got it as far as I can tell, it seems to be eating along with the others.

 

[lion_crazz]

I really cannot see velvet, but regardless, there are some problems I have with your tank. I am not looking to flame you; I am just trying to give you some pointers:
-Hopefully your 20 gallon tank is a quarantine tank?? The koran angel needs at least 6 times the tank that you have in order to live and thrive. This is an active fish, and one that gets 15 inches.
-You should not have a range for salinity. You should know your salinity, and it should be set at one number. Frequent fluctuations in salinity are a big problem in saltwater animals.
-Your light cycle is very long. Your fish are getting 15 hours of light.
-It does not appear that you have live rock? This is nearly essential to saltwater animals, especially high maintenance ones like large angels.
-Hopefully you have a skimmer and powerheads in your tank. That type of filter only does a maximum of 145 gph, so that really is not enough flow in your tank. And then you said it is cut back, so it is probably only doing 100 gph. That is only turning your tank volume over 5 times.
-The diet you have your fish on is not great either. They need much more of a variety. The brine is just about worthless, so they really only have one good thing in their diet. They should have 5 or 6 nutritious items in their diet. Think about all the things in the wild the fish could possibly eat. Eating brine and flakes will take a toll on them. I would recommend either getting a whole bunch of different seafoods, or picking up some formula foods like formula 1 and 2, and DEFINITELY angel formula so that your angel is provided with sponge in its diet. This is very essential to the health of large angels (large, as opposed to dwarf species who do not need sponge as much). By picking up formula foods, you will provide your fish with a large variety of seafoods such as krill, scallop, mysis shrimp, plankton, clam, mussel, kelp, seaweed, fish, fish roe, etc.

 

[vesuvan]

Yes, its a Quarantine tank. The salinity variation I always add due to water changes. For the first day after a change it has dropped as low as 1.021, but I always stabilize it to 1.023. Currently the angel fish is almost 2.5 inches in length, its still fairly young. The two clowns are also Juviniles and are just barely 1.5 inches. As far as the food goes. I originally started with formula 1, and a marine combo that I use in my other tank, but the angel and one of the clowns refuse to eat it. I tried just the brine and they didnt eat, then the flakes, and they started to eat those. Then I began to mix the two, which now they eat both, then this new problem with the angel came and I havent changed the diet since they are eating it.
-What is a good light cycle time? I have just been running about the sunrise sunset that we have here. which right now is about 13 hours.

 

[lion_crazz]

Well even 13 hours of light is better than 15.
I would work on keeping the salinity more stable. Do you mix your water change water 24-48 hours before you perform the water change? If you do this, you should be able mix it to have it exactly at what you keep your tank.
How long has the angel been in quarantine?

 

[vesuvan]

I usually mix it in a 30 gallon trash can (mixing up about 25 gallons of water) that has a powerhead to help dissolve the salt, which I use Instant Ocean for that. I usually let it mix for half a day, then I change out the water I need. But even when stable at 1.023 when I add it to the tank its always a little lower than 1.023 til the next afternoon or early morning.
So far the angel has been in Quarantine for 6 days.

 

[beth]

Do you notice heavy breathing....if this were velvet, most like this fish would be dead by now.

 

[lion_crazz]

I agree.
Beth, velvet is not red spots, anyway (as he noted). This poster said, "little tiny red powder like things. As if it is covered in a red dust."
What would that be?

 

[vesuvan]

Yes, the angel is still alive. It has now retreated inside a cave under a rock, and is swimming at almost completely on its side. Its breathing isnt really heavy at all. Seems normal. Also in the last 24 hours. Very dark copper like stuff has begun to appear along the sand bottom and some of the rocks. Literally looks like copper powder. I have since removed the other fish and put them into another tank that is almost 2 years old and established and they seem to be doing fine.
I again tested for copper and other metals, and they still show none. I am thinking of going to buy new test kit tommorow just to make sure. Also the filter in the tanks are not even 10 days old yet, and are still pretty clean. pH is right at 8.387 I used a machine from work to test the water exactly. I borrowed a refractometer from the LFS and salinity is at 1.023.
Not sure what else to do, except scrap everything, clean the rocks off really good, and just start over again, with live rock and a long cycle period. Although my large tank has never had live rock or live sand and its been thriving for 14 months. I'm not sure anymore, how to medicate this tank.
Again forgive my horrid pictures.
Equilibriumless Angel

Copperish stuff

Copper Stuff

 

[vesuvan]

Something else that just occured just now. I turned off the lighting, (which is on 10 hour cycle now), and the angel made a few laps around the tank then went back under the rock. I am wondering if its possible that the Light is to strong for them, and he has a sunburn more or less. The lighting was changed to this bulb about a week ago. The light is an 18K Powerglow throwing 55 Lux. Do you think that lighting is to strong for being such a small tank?