Vodka dosing

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Coral Keeper
http:///forum/post/2520621
Isn't CO2 gas (that they use for freshwater planted tanks)the same thing as vodka? I have a DIY CO2 system on my freshwater heavily planted tank. I've also heard that CO2 systems were on reef tanks.
Carbon dioxide is produced by all animals, plants, fungi and microorganisms during respiration and is used by plants during photosynthesis. This is to make sugars, and suger i believe is a part of the prosses to eliminate nitrate, im only in the very Preliminary stage of research so anyone else want to jump in please feel free

 

[wangotango]

IMO it's not something you just want to go ahead and try, because it can have some pretty bad results if not done correctly (like a lot of things in this hobby).
There is a pretty big thread about Vodka dosing on --. Haven't read through it all but it seems pretty interesting.
-Justin

 

[candycane]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2520724
Carbon dioxide is produced by all animals, plants, fungi and microorganisms during respiration and is used by plants during photosynthesis. This is to make sugars, and suger i believe is a part of the prosses to eliminate nitrate, im only in the very Preliminary stage of research so anyone else want to jump in please feel free
Probably the combination of Ethyl and grain alchohol sugars that causes more "sugar" to be produced and precipitate out more nitrate so the plants have less to take up.

 

[florida joe]

Probably the combination of Ethyl and grain alchohol sugars that causes more "sugar" to be produced and precipitate out more nitrate so the plants have less to take up.[/QUOTE
plesase continue my firend seems you have a direction to take in this research

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by WangoTango
http:///forum/post/2520770
IMO it's not something you just want to go ahead and try, because it can have some pretty bad results if not done correctly (like a lot of things in this hobby).
There is a pretty big thread about Vodka dosing on --. Haven't read through it all but it seems pretty interesting.
-Justin
I agree Justin this is not something to do with out intensive research but if preformed under strict controls it could be a powerful tool in the fight against nitrate build up. Especially in older tanks

 

[ameno]

I dosed vodka for a while on my 80 gal. reef. around 5ml per day for about a year. I did not see any results by doing it. I started it to help reduce nitrates. but with very little if any effect. but when I installed a refugium the nitrates went to 0 and stayed there. So for my experence it was better to put the vodka in a drink and set and watch the tank having a little vodka drink while doing it

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by ameno
http:///forum/post/2521703
I dosed vodka for a while on my 80 gal. reef. around 5ml per day for about a year. I did not see any results by doing it. I started it to help reduce nitrates. but with very little if any effect. but when I installed a refugium the nitrates went to 0 and stayed there. So for my experence it was better to put the vodka in a drink and set and watch the tank having a little vodka drink while doing it

I agree about the refug being the preferd way to go but in situations where its not feasible to have one and on larger size tanks where 15 or 20g water changes a week are needed just to keep nitrates at a some what safe level. Dosing may be worth looking into.

 

[raato]

Joe I was at the same lecture. I agree with your assessment on the vodka and Julians points, but I took a slightly different approach after listening to Julian.
I was considering sugar dosing. It is basically the same theory but sugar is already a simple sugar. I would have sent a pm but being new here Ihave to figure this site out

 

[candycane]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2521206
plesase continue my firend seems you have a direction to take in this research

IMSO, there is probably too many "variables" when it comes to adding this stuff. Too many cautions for an element to be added that there really may not be a regulatory amount for.
There are Reef buffers where we know that at this amount will raise alkalinity by that amount and PH by so and so amount. Or calcium that we know will raise the tank a certain PPM by adding so many tablespoons. Ethyl alcohol and grain sugar alcohol (as far as I know) do not contain highly soluble elements, like they aren't absorbed in all their forms by more then one thing. Probably talking years (if not a week, LOL) of research to find out that vodka, and what brand (because of sugar differences), in what amount, (here comes a bunch of commas), for what nitrate level would need to be dosed in to how many gallons of water.
DON'T ANYONE DO THIS, I am just saying that; (hypothetical , do NOT attempt) let's say that your 125 gallon tank is showing 20PPM nitrate. Meaning that you would have to use 1.5 tablespoons of brand X vodka to lower the nitrate level to 0, without leaving anything but the smallest trace of what went in. You would first have to start with the smallest amount (from an eye dropper), to see what exact amount of brand x vodka is needed to even begin lowering it. Same rule applies as in you can always add more but never take it away. If you go over, lord only knows what it would do to carbonate levels with free excess floating grain alcohol sugars let alone ethyl floating around in a tank (whether it is immediate or over time). That would most likely give a rough outline of what MIGHT be safe, a possible building block to begin research, if your maintenance routine is fairly stringent.
I got about 15 20 gallon tanks that I could just spike nitrate to different levels in and figure it out in about a week probably. Just something I am not too interested in right now. I am trying to figure out how to breed Yellow Tangs. =)

 

[raato]

Julian was quick to point out this is not for everyone and it must be taken S---l---o---w---l---y or it could crash everything. Julian also advised to use the minimal amount to achieve nitrate movement, which would take days/weeks to determine since dosing would be slowly increased. Julian did state there is no such thing as a magic formula for dosing.
Dosing was not the main point of his lecture, filtration was the main topic. Between Julian Sprung and James Fatherree it was an awesome lecture. I wish they would have talked for longer than an hour each. They are both great guys! /end hijack
I will relay my experiences with Sugar dosing. I started sugar dosing prior to Julains talk after reading about it here and on another big salt water forum. I decided to slowly begin dosing sugar on a daily basis since I could not get my trates down below 5-10. I have been dosing for about 2 weeks. My daily dose is a pinch of sugar I started with about 20 grains of sugar and have it up to about 50 grains of sugar and my trates seem to be going down. My trates are reading about5 now but I can see the difference since when I started. Granted I did not have a huge problem with trates, but wanted my SPS to be happier and healthier. I can unequivicolly state my polyps are extending further now than prior to dosing. I have a green stylophora that extends so far out it looks like the polys should fall over due to their own weight.
This is just my experience and opinion. Any dosing should be done with extreme care and caution.
Joe did you stay for the auction?

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Raato
http:///forum/post/2521838
Julian was quick to point out this is not for everyone and it must be taken S---l---o---w---l---y or it could crash everything. Julian also advised to use the minimal amount to achieve nitrate movement, which would take days/weeks to determine since dosing would be slowly increased. Julian did state there is no such thing as a magic formula for dosing.
Dosing was not the main point of his lecture, filtration was the main topic. Between Julian Sprung and James Fatherree it was an awesome lecture. I wish they would have talked for longer than an hour each. They are both great guys! /end hijack
I will relay my experiences with Sugar dosing. I started sugar dosing prior to Julains talk after reading about it here and on another big salt water forum. I decided to slowly begin dosing sugar on a daily basis since I could not get my trates down below 5-10. I have been dosing for about 2 weeks. My daily dose is a pinch of sugar I started with about 20 grains of sugar and have it up to about 50 grains of sugar and my trates seem to be going down. My trates are reading about5 now but I can see the difference since when I started. Granted I did not have a huge problem with trates, but wanted my SPS to be happier and healthier. I can unequivicolly state my polyps are extending further now than prior to dosing. I have a green stylophora that extends so far out it looks like the polys should fall over due to their own weight.
This is just my experience and opinion. Any dosing should be done with extreme care and caution.
Joe did you stay for the auction?
Wish I had known you were going, I asked a few people on the boards that were from SWF, but I thought I was the only one to go. It truly was a good forum. I did not stay for the

[hr]
but I did buy a frag from The Reef Gardner. There has been a lot of talk about clams lately and I wish I could get a copy of James Fatherree. Talk concerning them and got permission to print it. Seem it would clear up a lot of misconceptions. I send you a pm

 

[nietzsche]

hey joe, ive been thinking about trying this out for a while. on my tank i plan on starting out with .05 CC since i believe .1 mL will be too much for me. the only thing is i have to go out and buy the vodka. ive already got a good enough skimmer for the tank
people were telling me that it really did help them out and their SPS and clams were thriving but that softies were really hurting since the tank was low on nutrients

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by candycane
http:///forum/post/2521803
IMSO, there is probably too many "variables" when it comes to adding this stuff. Too many cautions for an element to be added that there really may not be a regulatory amount for.
There are Reef buffers where we know that at this amount will raise alkalinity by that amount and PH by so and so amount. Or calcium that we know will raise the tank a certain PPM by adding so many tablespoons. Ethyl alcohol and grain sugar alcohol (as far as I know) do not contain highly soluble elements, like they aren't absorbed in all their forms by more then one thing. Probably talking years (if not a week, LOL) of research to find out that vodka, and what brand (because of sugar differences), in what amount, (here comes a bunch of commas), for what nitrate level would need to be dosed in to how many gallons of water.
DON'T ANYONE DO THIS, I am just saying that; (hypothetical , do NOT attempt) let's say that your 125 gallon tank is showing 20PPM nitrate. Meaning that you would have to use 1.5 tablespoons of brand X vodka to lower the nitrate level to 0, without leaving anything but the smallest trace of what went in. You would first have to start with the smallest amount (from an eye dropper), to see what exact amount of brand x vodka is needed to even begin lowering it. Same rule applies as in you can always add more but never take it away. If you go over, lord only knows what it would do to carbonate levels with free excess floating grain alcohol sugars let alone ethyl floating around in a tank (whether it is immediate or over time). That would most likely give a rough outline of what MIGHT be safe, a possible building block to begin research, if your maintenance routine is fairly stringent.
I got about 15 20 gallon tanks that I could just spike nitrate to different levels in and figure it out in about a week probably. Just something I am not too interested in right now. I am trying to figure out how to breed Yellow Tangs. =)
My biggest concern is factoring in the amount of nitrate you are eliminating in your tank before you dose and how to make sure you continue at the same level as you dose. A change in your tanks present denitrifying capability both for the better or worst can have dire effects on your tank IMO

 

[raato]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2521908
Wish I had known you were going, I asked a few people on the boards that were from SWF, but I thought I was the only one to go. It truly was a good forum. I did not stay for the

[hr]
but I did buy a frag from The Reef Gardner. There has been a lot of talk about clams lately and I wish I could get a copy of James Fatherree. Talk concerning them and got permission to print it. Seem it would clear up a lot of misconceptions. I send you a pm
Joe I dont have permissions to access PM's or an admin has blocked me. Are you a member of the SWFMAS which held the event? You can contact me there I have the same user name.
I bought a copy of Featherree's book. All I am going to say is don't believe everything you read on a forum. There is alot of incomplete/inaccurate/out dated information floating around regarding clams. He has forgotten more about Clams than I can ever hope to know.
As for dosing I agree with Joe if you are going to dose you need to monitor things very closely. I don't have softies, but I have heard dosing with softies is detrimental to them and can possibly kill them. Softies like dirty water. I am not advocating dosing just relaying my first hand experiences dosing sugar.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Raato
http:///forum/post/2522006
Joe I dont have permissions to access PM's or an admin has blocked me. Are you a member of the SWFMAS which held the event? You can contact me there I have the same user name.
I bought a copy of Featherree's book. All I am going to say is don't believe everything you read on a forum. There is alot of incomplete/inaccurate/out dated information floating around regarding clams. He has forgotten more about Clams than I can ever hope to know.
As for dosing I agree with Joe if you are going to dose you need to monitor things very closely. I don't have softies, but I have heard dosing with softies is detrimental to them and can possibly kill them. Softies like dirty water. I am not advocating dosing just relaying my first hand experiences dosing sugar.
I am a member of SWFMAS I also have the same sigh on name there they were all sold out when I wanted to buy the book but I ordered it as soon as i arived home from amazon

 

[candycane]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2521915
My biggest concern is factoring in the amount of nitrate you are eliminating in your tank before you dose and how to make sure you continue at the same level as you dose. A change in your tanks present denitrifying capability both for the better or worst can have dire effects on your tank IMO
Wouldn't that be similar to what I was saying above? Basically if you have 20 PPM of nitrate in a 125 that builds over a period of sayyyyyy 1 week, adding blah blah MLs of vodka would cause it to drop to around 1-2. I would think an easy way to find out would be to shut off your sump or filtration for a week to see what normally would occur if you did not have any filtration.
I don't use what isn't biological filtration to begin with in some of my tanks. Included in this is sponges, tunicates and clams. I think the main goal is to create a tank that is completely self sustaining. I use protein skimmers for the first few months that I am cycling a tank. Don't get me wrong, every tank needs water movement. But look at the rest of the chemicals.
If you can balance what is in your tank, then why have a need for anything else. Clams and Tunicates and Sponges are all particulate organic filter feeders. Some tunicates also feed off of bacteria. Clams will take in such harmfull chemicals as phosphate and nitrate and that's that. Also, I run about 5 times my tank volume through my sump. I don't go for the whole 15x thing through it. The sump is only filled with feather caulerpa on this particular tank. Just to me it would seem the longer the amount of time the water is in contact with the macro, the more of an active roll the macro can play. Rather then just have it flow through it so quick, it really only pulls out particulates that are visible to the bare eye. Longer time = more take up of chemicals and CO2 which = production of more 02 and sugars which = percipitation of phosphates (most of the time anyways).
Then there are things like nassarius snails that should rid your tank of detritus, fish waste and excess food. They then burry themselves in the sand an excrete it. Your sand bed then breaks it down and turns it in to less harmfull nitrate. But this is either taken in by the things in your tank that feed off of nitrate, or can be precipitated out of your tank via other methods. It's the entire above process just starting all over again I guess you could say.
Once again, I do NOT recommend trying ANY of the above.

 

[raato]

candy it sounds like I am on the same page with you.
I don't do much of anything I am trying to get my tank balanced. After reading so much about vodka/sugar dosing I wanted to try it and see how it worked and in my particular case it worked exactly as intended. However, I am always weary of reaching the break point and over dosing the sugar, which in turn creats cloudy water due to an bacterial bloom.
I am probably going to stop sugar dosing soon since I have added a few croceas and they will help uptake the trates. I was just being curious and wanted to give it a shot, but if it did not work I would not have been upset. AFter seeing it with my own eyes I know it is doing something my SPS just seem to love it even in such moderation.
I notice you use Nassarius snails I prefer cerith personally they are smaller and can get in places the Nass snails can't. I do agree though that balance is the key to everything in this hobby.

 

[candycane]

Nassarius, Cerith, Bumble Bee - they all pretty much do the same job. How does a cerith get somewhere a nassarius vibex can't? Unless you have the North Carolina Mud Snails that look like black olive pits?

 

[raato]

can I cry uncle?

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Raato
http:///forum/post/2522568
can I cry uncle?
Cerith snails are Omnivores Nassarius Snails are
Carnivores same size but I like the Cerith for the omnivore plus