Water Changes

acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/393226/water-changes#post_3496749
Even the ocean won't last forever. That is a given. Is this possible? Yes. Plausible? No. And what would constitute a water change in the ocean? What constitutes a closed system? What is necessary? Can it be done? Yes, it has. Is it a good idea? No. I still can't understand why there is an argument about this right now. Does topping off count as a water change? You are, in essence, replacing old water with new water. Not that it does anything to balance levels other than salinity. You can buy biOrbs that don't require water changes. Does that mean that they last forever or have the flexibility of a saltwater aquarium? No. Does that mean that they last as long? No. Did I make such claims? No. My point wasn't proven? What was my point, then? Please, correctly interpret what I was trying to say and tell me, because I am lost.
Were not talking about the ocean not lasting forever......As I pointed out and you refuse to open your mind, obviously you don't know what a "closed system" is.....An aquarium is a "closed system"....The same body of water is always there.....I'm not buying into the theory or notion that if a tank is properly balanced the biological system will handle everything.....
That biological system can be upset so very easy and it takes just and instance and it's upset.....
The ocean/seas on the other hand in theory is not a "closed system".....That water is not constantly surrounding those same inhabitants....New water and nutrients are always being flushed over the inhabitants, and nature at it's best removing all the organics and what not....those things can't be replicated naturally in an aquarium, and therefore that is where water changes come into play.....And yes there are storms, rain and what not and those things are natures way of a "so called" water change......
BiOrbs......again junk stuff sold to the assuming.......
 
pezenfuego

pezenfuego

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3496823
Were not talking about the ocean not lasting forever......As I pointed out and you refuse to open your mind, obviously you don't know what a "closed system" is.....An aquarium is a "closed system"....The same body of water is always there.....I'm not buying into the theory or notion that if a tank is properly balanced the biological system will handle everything.....
That biological system can be upset so very easy and it takes just and instance and it's upset.....
The ocean/seas on the other hand in theory is not a "closed system".....That water is not constantly surrounding those same inhabitants....New water and nutrients are always being flushed over the inhabitants, and nature at it's best removing all the organics and what not....those things can't be replicated naturally in an aquarium, and therefore that is where water changes come into play.....And yes there are storms, rain and what not and those things are natures way of a "so called" water change......
BiOrbs......again junk stuff sold to the assuming.......
A) I never said that an aquarium wasn't a closed system. I am saying that now though. According to the second law of thermodynamics, it is not possible for an aquarium to be a closed system as the entropy does not decrease. Energy is coming from an outside source (ie electricity, feedings, water changes, etc.)
B) Rain functions as topoff and does not rebalance the nutrients of a system.
C) Logic: What if you want to keep various species of mold, algae, and bacteria in your system and not fish at all. You can do that. Now, that is extreme, but my point is still valid and will always be valid. I am not arguing practicality, I am arguing possibility and to say that it isn't possible is wrong. Hell, if you could invent a system that removes salt from the body of water (a kidney), then you could dose salt.
Now all of this might seem crazy and you might argue that it is the most impractical or imaginative thing you've heard. You might argue that it's stupid, but that is beyond the point. The point is that it exists (the ocean) and therefore it is possible.
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
This is a very old and constant discussion on all aquarium maintenance.
And one where my ideas and practices get me on constant "discussions" (trouble? LOL)
To be blunt the solution to polution is never dilution but rather converting the polution to things at least not toxic and hopefully beneficial ot the environment. In the case of ammonia/nitrates/phosphates/carbon dioxide that could plant life converting them to fish food and oxygen. For more toxic things like say copper in a reef tank exporting the copper with one method being harvesting algae that filtered out the copper.
Fortunately with the assumption of some linear parameter and a constant rate of change, It is possible to do simple mathematical analysis.
So one can look at my serious while still humorous analysis in this old thread.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/369985/beaslbobs-water-change-analysis
As a summary of that with a 1 ppm increase in nitrates (or anything else) and a 10% water change every 10 days with 0 nitrate replacement water, the tank will wind up at 100ppm nitrates before the water changes.
sure you could do 100% water changes every day to limit the build up to the daily amount. And you can do exactly that by living near the ocean and constantly circulation new water through the system. But to me that simply is not doable to the average (and inland) aquariumist.
But with plant life consuming the nitrates the nitrates are always 0 regardless of whatever water changes are being done.
This obviously explains why we have to dose calcium/alk/magnesium in reef tanks. Basically the water changes simply don't keep with demand.
But then what do I know? I just ran a mixed reef tank for 7 years with no water changes. And have had dozens of FW tanks for up to 7-9 years with descendants of the original cycle fish in many different cities all with no water changes. And tap water to boot.
Still all in all just my.
.02
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3496975
This is a very old and constant discussion on all aquarium maintenance.
And one where my ideas and practices get me on constant "discussions" (trouble? LOL)
To be blunt the solution to polution is never dilution but rather converting the polution to things at least not toxic and hopefully beneficial ot the environment. In the case of ammonia/nitrates/phosphates/carbon dioxide that could plant life converting them to fish food and oxygen. For more toxic things like say copper in a reef tank exporting the copper with one method being harvesting algae that filtered out the copper.
Fortunately with the assumption of some linear parameter and a constant rate of change, It is possible to do simple mathematical analysis.
So one can look at my serious while still humorous analysis in this old thread.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/369985/beaslbobs-water-change-analysis
As a summary of that with a 1 ppm increase in nitrates (or anything else) and a 10% water change every 10 days with 0 nitrate replacement water, the tank will wind up at 100ppm nitrates before the water changes.
sure you could do 100% water changes every day to limit the build up to the daily amount. And you can do exactly that by living near the ocean and constantly circulation new water through the system. But to me that simply is not doable to the average (and inland) aquariumist.
But with plant life consuming the nitrates the nitrates are always 0 regardless of whatever water changes are being done.
This obviously explains why we have to dose calcium/alk/magnesium in reef tanks. Basically the water changes simply don't keep with demand.
But then what do I know? I just ran a mixed reef tank for 7 years with no water changes. And have had dozens of FW tanks for up to 7-9 years with descendants of the original cycle fish in many different cities all with no water changes. And tap water to boot.
Still all in all just my.
.02
Well that explains how my Kuda seahorses are still alive when I have only done a 20g water change in 5 months. My PO4 and NO3 are a happy fat 0. My macroalgae eats it up, and when I pull out the extra macros...I am pulling out PO4 and NO3. I don't even have a skimmer on that tank. My seahorses are huge, fat and healthy.
I did do regular WCs and had a skimmer in the beginning. My skimmer broke after yr 1, and my macros went crazy growing while I was sick and couldn't do WCs. So it wasn't on purpose, but it does thrive.
However on a new tank (less than 1 yr old), you need water changes because there is no way the system is balanced out yet. If you don't dilute the pollution, you will have a cyano and or hair algae battle of your life. I would never recommend tap water...my fish have no need for fluoride and the slew of other chemicals that even macros don't feed on. Nature can't fix what is unnatural, and that goes triple for a tiny piece of the ocean we call a SW fish tank.
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3496986
Well that explains how my Kuda seahorses are still alive when I have only done a 20g water change in 5 months. My PO4 and NO3 are a happy fat 0. My macroalgae eats it up, and when I pull out the extra macros...I am pulling out PO4 and NO3. I don't even have a skimmer on that tank. My seahorses are huge, fat and healthy.
I did do regular WCs and had a skimmer in the beginning. My skimmer broke after yr 1, and my macros went crazy growing while I was sick and couldn't do WCs. So it wasn't on purpose, but it does thrive.
However on a new tank (less than 1 yr old), you need water changes because there is no way the system is balanced out yet. If you don't dilute the pollution, you will have a cyano and or hair algae battle of your life. I would never recommend tap water...my fish have no need for fluoride and the slew of other chemicals that even macros don't feed on. Nature can't fix what is unnatural, and that goes triple for a tiny piece of the ocean we call a SW fish tank.
Thanks for posting. Do you suppose all those macros are feeding the sea horses in addition the the food you add? And that a skimmer would remove food for both the macros and horsies?
Yeppers. with the macros you recycle the wastes into food. A skimmer interrupts all that.
I do respectifully disagree with the new tank though. What happens is the plant life (macros) will consume any ammonia being generated and prevent all those start up nasty spikes. With a temporary (3 week or so) initial nitrates spike instead. So with macros in control right from the start the initial algae/cyano battles can be avoided and the tank is much healthier.
I understand the tap water concern but with small topoffs all the stuff in the tap water is not only lessoned but the tank (macros) takes care of it. For instance, one thing I almost never see on these forums is chloramine is actually reduced by the aerobic bacteria in our tanks such as the bacteria added with the macros. City water suppliers actually have to flush out the pipes to clean out the ammonia/nitrates being generated by the bacteria reducing the chlorimines. Don't get me wrong. You don't and I don't recommend using tap water with or without macros and then immediately adding fish. But if you wait a week, let the macros expand and then add fish slowly there are no parameter spikes or stress to the fish. Just to be safe I use a fw molly as a test fish.
And you do have to maintain calcium/alk/magnesium for corals as well as provide light and food as well.
But balancing out a tank so that water changes are unnecessary is easliy achieved and IMHO should be the goal of anyone.
still just my .02
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
I too don't do WC's as often as I should (probably going on about 6 months right now) But like flower's system of macros I have a turf scrubber that I harvest once a week that takes all the nasties out of the water and goes out with the garbage on tuesdays, completley gone from my system. If you don't have a load of harvestable macros I don't think you could really get by with no water changes. Eventually the phos and nitrates would build up and kill everything. usually before that you are going to notice some other things like algea growing on everything in your tank.
I actually enjoy doing water changes (I know I'm weird) but it gives me a chance to do all my measurements, and make sure everything is running properly in my tank.
In a perfect world you would have water chances in addition to all the other filtrations discussed in this thread.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3496995
And you do have to maintain calcium/alk/magnesium for corals as well as provide light and food as well.
But balancing out a tank so that water changes are unnecessary is easliy achieved and IMHO should be the goal of anyone.
still just my .02
You say that you need to supplement calcium, alkalinity and magnesium ... so I am assuming that you are doing it the cheap way by using calcium chloride, baking soda and epsom salt (magnesium sulfate). Balling method, basically. (I think it's funny how they finally gave it a name...)
The problem with adding these chemicals into your tank to supplement your tanks needs *(without water changes) is that it tips the scales of sodium and chloride in your tank. By continuing to add chloride to your tank (calcium chloride and magnesium chloride) you are shifting the ionic and chemical balance of the tank. Sulfates (sulfate part of Epsom salt) can also build up to disagreeable levels if continuously used without water changes. Also, by using supplements, (chlorides and sulfates) you are steadily increasing your salinity (on the Chloride side of the equation.)
Basically, by adding supplements and not doing any water changes, you are increasing salinity and tipping the balance of chlorides and sulfates into unreasonable and unnatural levels while sodium stays the same....
So, you see that your salinity is rising to a point that you don't want to go over, so you remove some of this water and you replace it with freshwater to get down to a salinity that is more agreeable... What is wrong with this situation? Well...... your decreasing your salinity as it is measured by Chloride in the system. BUT, the sodium levels have remained the same... continuously adjusting salinity down will eventually yield a tank that has such low sodium levels that it is uninhabitable. Think about it.
What a water change does is BALANCE the water chemistry back out after using supplements for a while... as well as the purpose of it is to remove the mulm and detritus out of the system.
So, can you justify using supplements for the long term life (40+ years) of an aquarium without water changes? I certainly can't... even though it would be nice, and I don't do that many water changes, I still can chemically justify a water change.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3496995
Thanks for posting. Do you suppose all those macros are feeding the sea horses in addition the the food you add? And that a skimmer would remove food for both the macros and horsies?
Yeppers. with the macros you recycle the wastes into food. A skimmer interrupts all that.
I do respectifully disagree with the new tank though. What happens is the plant life (macros) will consume any ammonia being generated and prevent all those start up nasty spikes. With a temporary (3 week or so) initial nitrates spike instead. So with macros in control right from the start the initial algae/cyano battles can be avoided and the tank is much healthier.
I understand the tap water concern but with small topoffs all the stuff in the tap water is not only lessoned but the tank (macros) takes care of it. For instance, one thing I almost never see on these forums is chloramine is actually reduced by the aerobic bacteria in our tanks such as the bacteria added with the macros. City water suppliers actually have to flush out the pipes to clean out the ammonia/nitrates being generated by the bacteria reducing the chlorimines. Don't get me wrong. You don't and I don't recommend using tap water with or without macros and then immediately adding fish. But if you wait a week, let the macros expand and then add fish slowly there are no parameter spikes or stress to the fish. Just to be safe I use a fw molly as a test fish.
And you do have to maintain calcium/alk/magnesium for corals as well as provide light and food as well.
But balancing out a tank so that water changes are unnecessary is easliy achieved and IMHO should be the goal of anyone.
still just my .02
Keep in mind...I'm talking about a seahorse tank, not a regular fish only system.
The only thing the horses could use concerning macros are the amphipods that live in it, seahorses do not eat macros so they will not become food for them ever.. The ONLY food the seahorses eat are frozen mysis and amphipods. The skimmer wouldn't hurt the amphipods and therefore not hurt the seahorses to run a skimmer.
Seahorses are nastier when it comes to waste than any SW fish I ever had. They waste food itself not just poop like a normal fish, so the nutrients in the system is off the charts. The cyano and hair algae would quickly out-compete the macros for food in a new set up. I know this for a fact...macros need time to grow, and right off the start there isn't anything in the tank to feed the super growth needed to balance out the system, the cyano and or hair algae would grow first, take over even the macros and suffocate it.. Macros are not in control from the start, brown algae bloom is the first wave. Macroalgae struggles in a new system, a week is not enough to control the kind of waste my 4 seahorses make...that 3 weeks of initial nitrates that you mentioned, would kill the seahorses, that's why a water change is absolutely necessary when the tank is new.
Another thing about my tanks....I don't have coral, the macros in my display tank (DT) would quickly smother any coral. Most people have macros in the refugium...I use macroalgae because they make natural hitches for the horses. I wouldn't recommend anyone reading this thread to add a ton of macros into a DT unless you never plan to have coral.
LOL...I would never use a fish...not even a FW molly to test the tank.
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3497027
You say that you need to supplement calcium, alkalinity and magnesium ... so I am assuming that you are doing it the cheap way by using calcium chloride, baking soda and epsom salt (magnesium sulfate). Balling method, basically. (I think it's funny how they finally gave it a name...)
The problem with adding these chemicals into your tank to supplement your tanks needs *(without water changes) is that it tips the scales of sodium and chloride in your tank. By continuing to add chloride to your tank (calcium chloride and magnesium chloride) you are shifting the ionic and chemical balance of the tank. Sulfates (sulfate part of Epsom salt) can also build up to disagreeable levels if continuously used without water changes. Also, by using supplements, (chlorides and sulfates) you are steadily increasing your salinity (on the Chloride side of the equation.)
Basically, by adding supplements and not doing any water changes, you are increasing salinity and tipping the balance of chlorides and sulfates into unreasonable and unnatural levels while sodium stays the same....
So, you see that your salinity is rising to a point that you don't want to go over, so you remove some of this water and you replace it with freshwater to get down to a salinity that is more agreeable... What is wrong with this situation? Well...... your decreasing your salinity as it is measured by Chloride in the system. BUT, the sodium levels have remained the same... continuously adjusting salinity down will eventually yield a tank that has such low sodium levels that it is uninhabitable. Think about it.
What a water change does is BALANCE the water chemistry back out after using supplements for a while... as well as the purpose of it is to remove the mulm and detritus out of the system.
So, can you justify using supplements for the long term life (40+ years) of an aquarium without water changes? I certainly can't... even though it would be nice, and I don't do that many water changes, I still can chemically justify a water change.
While what you say is true and salinity does increase slightly seems to me like a little freshwater would correct the salinity.
Besides I suggest you read the water change analysis link. anywhere normal water changes schedules will not maintain anything unless the tank is unchanging to begin with. In which case the water changes at best make no difference.
my .02
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3497133
While what you say is true and salinity does increase slightly seems to me like a little freshwater would correct the salinity.
Besides I suggest you read the water change analysis link. anywhere normal water changes schedules will not maintain anything unless the tank is unchanging to begin with. In which case the water changes at best make no difference.
my .02
Now, I kind of disagree with you, and yes,... I have read the link thoroughly. I love your galloping elephants analogy.
Adding freshwater will add to the volume of the tank. Since the sump and volume of the tank is constant, adding more volume to the tank via freshwater is infeasible. You could keep setting up rubbermaid tubs and have it all drain into a bigger and bigger sump... but I am talking about one tank, one sump, one constant water volume. Now, if you take some saltwater out and you put some freshwater back in, you are removing sodium ions and adding more chloride ions by supplementation, thereby throwing off the chemical balance to reduce salinity. Even if you constantly increase the volume of water by adding freshwater, you are adding more supplements into the water column and tipping the scales on the chloride side and making the system become unbalanced. Either way, by removing saltwater and replacing with freshwater OR by increasing the volume of water by freshwater, you are still unbalancing the tank toward more chloride ions.
Calcium reactors are a little different than the balling method, however, and this argument could go on for a while about the use of calcium reactors over regular supplementation via chlorides and sulfates.
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393226/water-changes/20#post_3497144
Now, I kind of disagree with you, and yes,...
There is a highly technical term for that extreme condition.
it's called
normal.
LOL
I have read the link thoroughly. I love your galloping elephants analogy]
thanks
Adding freshwater will add to the volume of the tank. Since the sump and volume of the tank is constant, adding more volume to the tank via freshwater is infeasible. You could keep setting up rubbermaid tubs and have it all drain into a bigger and bigger sump... but I am talking about one tank, one sump, one constant water volume. Now, if you take some saltwater out and you put some freshwater back in, you are removing sodium ions and adding more chloride ions by supplementation, thereby throwing off the chemical balance to reduce salinity. Even if you constantly increase the volume of water by adding freshwater, you are adding more supplements into the water column and tipping the scales on the chloride side and making the system become unbalanced. Either way, by removing saltwater and replacing with freshwater OR by increasing the volume of water by freshwater, you are still unbalancing the tank toward more chloride ions.
Calcium reactors are a little different than the balling method, however, and this argument could go on for a while about the use of calcium reactors over regular supplementation via chlorides and sulfates.
Yea I know there is an interplay but I meant to adjust the salinity by removing water and adding fresh. But the also reduces the suppliments. So there is an interplay. but still much better IMHO than say 10% weekly water changes which will never maintain levels especially in a tank with sps corals, hard macros, or even just lotsa corraline algae.
my .02
 
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