we need help with small reef system

[rabbit_72]

My hubby and I turned a 29 gallon formally fresh water tank into a salt water tank, intending it to be a small reef tank. We wanted to test our skills before investing in a larger tank. We let it cycle and added live rock and eventually corals and some small fish. It was beautiful. The my hubby brought home a coral from a reputable store, but it carried a bacterial infection. It was red and fuzzy and eventually started killing off coals and even fish. We were told to increase the oxygen levels in the tank and use Chemi-Clean to clear up the infection. It did, but now the only things that will survive in this tank are snails and conches and a few corals that have never returned to their former beauty. Even the live rock has lost it's color! And any fish we try to add to the tank die within 4 to 6 hours. Also, during the time after clearing up the infection, we moved and thought maybe the water here was causing the fish to die because my hubby lost almost all his fish in his 55 gallon, a blue tang and a yellow tang and a few others. What did survive were his clown fish that have just started spawning again. It's kind of strange all the problems we have been having lately. Can anyone help? We now use R/O water and my hubby checks levels of everything all the time. We will be attending a Coral Frag Swap conference at the end of the month and would like to know if my little reef tank holds any hope of housing life again!!

 

[reefer545]

You must be patient with your tank. It SOUNDS (not that I am right) like you rushed things a bit. Small tanks are actualy a good bit harder to keep than large. Do 5 to 10 per cent water changes DAILY or every other day at the least until your water params are constant and teh tank stops having algae blooms (which is an assumption, but is also invariable) STOP buying fish for a while if you have one or two that are living. The rule of thumb that I live by is one inch of fish for every three gallons of water. ALSO dont buy fish that are too big for your tank. NO tangs. Sorry. ONly use RO water. i would wait on the frag swapping meet. I awould also wait before buying any new corals, as many NEED a mature tank to be truly happy. Any more questions just post. i hope I was SOME help, and not too discouraging. Good luck. RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH

 

[sprang]

As mentioned above patience is golden in marine aquariums. A perfect book(s) to buy that may help are corals by eric borneman...also anything written (articles) by bob fenner or julian sprung have helped me correct past or current mystakes I have made. Unfortunatly most l.f.s are looking for quick sales, so You Must research outside the zone for total success especially in coral care. Hope this helps?

 

[farslayer]

Definitely no tangs, your tank isn't even close to being big enough. Esp. not a hippo, those suckers get big. Ok, now, the red stuff may have been cyano, and since you put in chemi clean I'm going to assume that is what it was. Cyano will not kill your corals or your fish (unless it completely covers the coral); you've got problems elsewhere, esp if you lose a fish in 4 to 6 hours.
First, post your water parameters: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, temperature, specific gravity...and if you have them, calcium, alkalinity, phosphates.
What type of lighting do you have and how old are the bulbs?
What type of filtration do you have? hang on, canister, sump? What type of media do you have in your filter?
Do you have a skimmer? A UV sterilizer?
When the fish died, what exactly happened. What corals are in there now?

 

[trippkid]

Agree w/Farslayer, and 2 tangs in a 55. They really should be in larger tanks, larger than 100gal. Need more info about your setup on the 29.

 

[rabbit_72]

My 29 gallon tank is more than one year old. My hubby checks parameters on a weekly, if not more, basis. The red, fuzzy stuff is gone, but do get green algae flare ups, but our turbo snails keep that in check. But I don't know why we get so much green algae. There are no problems in any of our other tanks. What is left as far as corals in this tank, are, I think, candy cane corals, starburst corals, which look like they want to come out, but do not fully open up, and ricordias (sp?). They used to be beautiful before the infection ( or so we were told that was what it was). But now we find it really strange that even hardy damsels die quickly. There are 3 power heads to circulate the water, a protein skimmer, and an Emperor 400 filtration. Also Orbit compact florescence lighting. We were told that the lighting would be sufficient for the type of corals and for the size of the tank ( or else we would have chosen differently). But anyhoo, right now, I am mostly concerned about why the fish die. Once I figure that out, maybe the corals will come next. Could anything, like an infection, be trapped in the live rock and/or substrate?
As for my hubby's tank, find it weird that there too, our anemones are beautiful, but any new fish introduced also die within hours. We have switched to R/O water since moving to our new house. In the old house, we never had a problem. We want very much to upgrade to much larger aquariums, but we want to know if it is our water causing all these problems.
Thank you for all your advice and input!

 

[farslayer]

Without specifics it is impossible to tell; your corals are not doing well either from what it sounds, so there is certainly a water problem. We've got to have all the details I outlined above. Just because the LFS said the lighting was sufficient means nothing, you should hear some of the stories on this board of what the local fish guy will say.

 

[rabbit_72]

My hubby says that nitrate and nitrite are at zero. pH is 8.3. Temp is 79. Hubby says calcium 465ppm which might be too high...it seems that calcium levels vary from person to person... At this point, I don't think we actually know what it should be anymore.
We have 5 tanks, one being a freshwater. That one is doing great... no problem, no deaths. 10 gallon saltwater quaretine tank that currently houses my clown fish that used to be in my 29 gallon is doing great. Fish happy and swimming. In 55 gallon tank, 2 clown fish that just spawned last night (don't water conditions have to be good for that to happen???), 2 anenomes (that are big and beautiful), a brittle starfish and decorator crab, snails, and a black blenny. But we tried to add a royal gramma and then a green chromis and both died within 24 hours. The black blenny has only been here for about 2 months and has not died. This tank has been established for over 3 years. It wasn't until we moved this last October that things with the 55 went down hill. Calcium spiked without us adding any calcium. Now that I think about it, I think calcium spiked in 29 gal tank. This would be much easier if the husband was here right now as he does all the tests.
We are still going to the frag swap conference in a few weeks, but at this time, I have no interest in purchasing any new corals. I intend to fix the problem we have first. But I would like to know why the fish die in the smaller tank, but the snails live! Crazy! It is kind of driving me insane. And I would tell you how the fish look when they die, but they usually hide in the live rock and then when you go to check on them, they are alreay dead. A while ago, we did see erractic breathing. We just don't know how it could be an oxygen thing when there is alot of current, as we were told to do.
Also, all water for all tanks come from the same water supply. Since using R/O water, which we never needed before moving, the starburst polyps show a bit more life than before. Also, we get most of our help and advice on our tanks from {EDIT LINKS}. For the most part, they are extremely helpful, but even this problem of ours has them stumped, which is why they told us to come to these message boards. We have taken our water samples into them, and the only thing they haven't checked was the calcium. But said everything else looks good, so even they have no clue.

 

[farslayer]

Well, couple of things I guess. First one, don't post/mention competitor sites, it's against board rules.
Ok, the calcium is high, but that's not going to kill your fish, no how no way. Heavy breathing can be stress or, possibly, ammonia, do you know your ammonia reading?
How are you introducing the fish, as far as acclimation is concerned. You also said you have anemones, do you know what type they are, how long you've had them, what your actual lighting is?
RO water is effectively a requirement, tap water has been enhanced for human consumption, not breathing So even though you don't detect ammonia, nitrate, etc, it doesn't make it ok to use since it could have copper, flourine, chlorine, etc.
Now oxygen levels are another matter. Do you have an O2 test kit? Water flow does NOT aerate your tank, doesn't matter how many powerheads you have, unless you are using the airlines with them to create bubbles or unless they are actively stirring the surface of the water. You only aerate water with movement when you add air or cause the surface to interact with the atmosphere.
Let's keep going down our list and see if we can't get this resolved

 

[rabbit_72]

Thanks.... we really need your help. Our goal is to learn all we can and set up a larger reef system... maybe a little smaller than the one another poster is biuling on a different thread! But if we cannot resolve this, there would be no point in continuing asd here my husband cry. Hehe!
Ammonia is at zero, so he says. As far as we know, there are no toxins in the water especailly as the clown fish spawned in another tank, but same water source. My husband aslo has compact florence lighting, but not sure what all the actual bulbs are, so I will have to ask him. We were told that adding airstones and such causes the surface to act like a protein skimmer and would collect toxins there are the surface. Is this wong? If so, this can be easily correct as we have plenty of airline and pumps. As for phospahate and alkalinity tests, I do not think we have tests for those as we were told we did not need them. Once agin, I assume we should go out and buy those?
There are no fish residing in my 29 gal tank seeing as they all dies with the exception of my two clownfish which were moved to the quarentine tank when we noticed them showing signs of stress. They are doing well there, and it is the same water source as the 29 gal. killer tank. I'd like to take some pics and then try and figure out how to put them up here so you can see how poorly the corals look that survive the Great Attack of the whatevers!

 

[rabbit_72]

Oh and I can see we will have to go get an O2 test kit. Why don't people tell you to buy this stuff??? Gee, I would think they like taking our money! And I promise to never mention a competitor again. Actaully, I think my hubby is intrigued by this website!

 

[rabbit_72]

Also, we drip acclimate all fish and invertebrates. The anemones are in the 55 gal tank and they are white sebeas (?)...sorry don't know technical name. They used to be white, but now have a brown tint with purple tips. One has been with us for over 2 years (knock on wood). The other one less than 6 months, I'd say.

 

[farslayer]

You definitely need phosphate and alk test kits, although phosphates will kill your inverts and cover your tank in algae before it will kill fish I believe.
Airstones as skimmers? Nope, that's definitely not a good solution. Invest in a nice skimmer, I was always happy with the CPR BakPak 2 reef version.
Skimmers don't collect toxins, only activated carbon does that. Skimmers remove dissolved content before it has a chance to go through the nitrogen cycle.
When you say the same water source, do you mean the water in the tank and the water in the QT are connected, as in flowing together? Or do you mean you put the water in both tanks from the same original source? Big difference
If you have airstones in there, and thus air bubbles, I'm guessing O2 is not the issue either. I'd love to seem as many pics as you can take of everything, inhabitants, your QT, your filters, everything.
Do you run activated carbon? Do you have a sterilizer?
Power compact lighting is not sufficient for many anemones, you usually need T5, VHO or Metal Halides, although not for all. If you know what type of anemones you have, post that and let an anemone expert chime in on the lighting.
And last, you've tried other test kits I assume? Not just other people, but other complete test kits? Some give false readings, the Salifert are the best but pricey. When you say you have algae problems, it can indicate a nitrate/phosphate problem.

 

[rabbit_72]

Okay, I must have been not so clear on the air stone thing. My 29 gal tank does indeed have a protein skimmer as does the 55 gal. we are told to not use air stones because they would act as a protein skimmer yet without a way to get rid of the waste, so it could possibly coat the surface water with toxins that actual protein skimmers are supposed to eliminate. So we removed the air lines and stones, but of course kept the skimmers in both tanks.
As for water source the quarantine tank is not connected to any other tanks. The same source would be from our R/O unit. So same faucet the water all comes from.
Here's what I found on the anemone
Sebae Anemone
(Heteractis crispa)
Click here for a larger image
Quick Stats
Minimum Tank Size: 30 gallons
Care Level: Difficult
Light: High
Water Flow: Medium
Tank Conditions: 72-78°F; sg 1.023-1.025; pH 8.1-8.4; dKH 8-12
Max. Size In Aquarium: Up to 1' 8"
Color Form: Brown, Purple, Tan
Temperament: Aggressive
Reef Compatible: Yes
Ideal Supplements: Iodine, Trace Elements
Origin: Indo-Pacific
Family: Stichodactylidae
Heteractis crispa is known as the Sebae or Leather Anemone. It was previously named Radianthus keukenthali. Heteractis malu may also be called the Sebae Anemone. Heteractis crispa is usually light tan to brown in color, and may have purple tips on its tentacles.
Acclimation to aquarium life can be very difficult for this species and its care should only be attempted by the most experienced aquarists. In the aquarium it requires strong lighting, porous live rock, and a variety of sandy and rocky locations from which it can choose to live. The addition of a Clownfish, such as the Blue Striped Clown, Amphiprion chrysopterus, will immediately help with its acclimatization and improve its chances of survival. When healthy, it will become very sticky. If it grasps onto something (or someone), it will be very difficult to convince it to let go without damaging it.
Once acclimated, it should be fed a diet of fish, worms, clams, shrimp, and other meaty foods once a week.
While they say high lighting and difficult care, we have found it to be quite easy and only use compact fluoresce. Amazingly, these little buggers have been quite hardy for us and we have had no problems with them. The only time we did have a little problem was when we needed to replace the bulbs. Other than that, we love it more than the bubble tip anemones, which used to always die on us and our clowners love them too.

 

[farslayer]

Hmm, how long have you had the anemones? I was under the impression that they required halides? Oh well, just be careful
Ok then, so no air stones. You could have an O2 problem, but I would think it would affect all of your fish. If you can, post some pics and maybe run some carbon on your tank, you could have toxins in there building up from your corals. Any pics would be good.

 

[farslayer]

Ah, just saw your last post, missed it, so I see your anemone life span is apparently pretty good
I would definitely run some carbon, if you drip acclimate and the stuff still dies, something is terribly wrong. How does the fish act in the store, does it eat well, swim around and such?

 

[ophiura]

What is the age and brand of test kits?
Can you post a picture of the tank in question?
What fish have you tried to put in there that have died so soon?
What are the symptoms?
What is your alkalinity?
What is the pH first thing in the morning, and last at the end of the day?
What is your water change schedule?
Do you use the same containers and buckets for the different tanks?
Do you run carbon?
Typically things that kill fish so readily are various toxins. Are the tanks situated near each other? Any painting, cleaning products, carpet stuff...anything near this tank? What do you use to clean algae off the glass?

 

[rabbit_72]

ok.. going to try to post some pics, but I am not very computer literate! And we do run carbon in all the tanks. Figured if there was a toxin that would have helped.
Tried to add attachment, but I guess it was too big. So, I will see how to get them smaller!

 

[ophiura]

There are very few fish diseases, IMO, that are going to kill apparently healthy fish in 4-6 hours.

 

[farslayer]

I'm going to second the idea of toxins, and I'm also restating the question about activated carbon. I run the stuff nonstop, I'd rather have to add trace elements than lose stuff due to some stupid corals fighting or something.