Welfare vs. Working. Where's the incentive to work?

theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-240.html
Granted, this was from 1995, so the numbers are a little dated. However, this is a very good look at the numbers of financial dependence, and how it stacks up against a low wage job.
The gist of the study basically says that it makes equal, or in some cases, greater financial sense for someone to chose welfare vs. trying to have a taxable, low wage job.
I'm a democrat, but I will be the first to say that if you make it easier and more affordable to do nothing vs. working... than people are going to choose nothing the majority of the time.
The question is, how did it get this way? What can we do to change it? CAN we do anything to change it? Is there a way to make working a better incentive than not?
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Let me tell you the dirty little secret I simply don't hear from anyone.
The government cannot "cure" poverty.
With all these programs, unemployment, welfare, ssi, and all the rest, We have taken billions and billions of dollars from successful working people and given it to the "poor".
And yet after all that (and throughout all that time ), the instant poverty rate remained exactly the same.
By definition because there will always be say 20% of the people making less that the other 80%.
So in addition to people just not working to get a check, that check cannot and will not ever change to poverty rate.
But those people will vote for politicians that promise them another check.
with the resulting 8% unemployment rate.
my .02
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-240.html
Granted, this was from 1995, so the numbers are a little dated.  However, this is a very good look at the numbers of financial dependence, and how it stacks up against a low wage job.
The gist of the study basically says that it makes equal, or in some cases, greater financial sense for someone to chose welfare vs. trying to have a taxable, low wage job.
I'm a democrat, but I will be the first to say that if you make it easier and more affordable to do nothing vs. working... than people are going to choose nothing the majority of the time. 
The question is, how did it get this way?  What can we do to change it?  CAN we do anything to change it? Is there a way to make working a better incentive than not?
You can't be serious, can you?
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

I'm completely serious.  How do you fix a broken entitlement system?  Just two days ago one of the students I volunteer with told me I better vote for Obama or they were gonna get their food stamps taken away.  This is the mentality of 7 year olds today.  It's sick...
You make it more difficult than just going to work. I have had this discussion numerous times. I see no point in holding it again...especially with those that vote in people that run on entitlements.
 
theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393443/welfare-vs-working-wheres-the-incentive-to-work#post_3500175
You make it more difficult than just going to work. I have had this discussion numerous times. I see no point in holding it again...especially with those that vote in people that run on entitlements.
Well, as a business owner, the guy who runs on entitlements was the lesser of two evils. I don't make near $250k a year, so it wasn't going to effect me much either way. However, I felt like Romney, as guy who made his fortune outsourcing jobs, was not the person you want to put in bed with big money corporations in this country. Those corporations already call the shots in this country behind closed doors... the last thing they needed was an ally in the oval office in my opinion.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Well, as a business owner, the guy who runs on entitlements was the lesser of two evils.  I don't make near $250k a year, so it wasn't going to effect me much either way.  However, I felt like Romney, as guy who made his fortune outsourcing jobs, was not the person you want to put in bed with big money corporations in this country.  Those corporations already call the shots in this country behind closed doors... the last thing they needed was an ally in the oval office in my opinion.
You mean like G.E.? :drinkingco:
And there were other candidates. I was hoping one of them would get 5% of the vote to break up this political monopoly the two parties have....But unfortunately, there are a lot of Sheep in this country.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
a better question might be.... can they really not put anybody in front of us that just wants to help America? Why do we have to choose between two evils? Is there no one else?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/393443/welfare-vs-working-wheres-the-incentive-to-work#post_3500176
Well, as a business owner, the guy who runs on entitlements was the lesser of two evils. I don't make near $250k a year, so it wasn't going to effect me much either way. However, I felt like Romney, as guy who made his fortune outsourcing jobs, was not the person you want to put in bed with big money corporations in this country. Those corporations already call the shots in this country behind closed doors... the last thing they needed was an ally in the oval office in my opinion.
Are you really not capable of understanding the different rolls a business owner and a president fill? Even if Romney had been this great outsourcer, which he wasn't, THAT WAS HIS JOB IF IT MADE THE COMPANY MORE PROFITABLE. Do you have the slightest friggin clue how many "Big Money Corporations" gave to 0bama in 08? Do you know how George Soros made most of his money? How about the reason the drug companies (Who by the way have twice the profit margin on the oil companies) supported 0bama care? No wonder our country is so screwed up......
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

 Are you really not capable of understanding the different rolls a business owner and a president fill? Even if Romney had been this great outsourcer,  which he wasn't, THAT WAS HIS JOB IF IT MADE THE COMPANY MORE PROFITABLE. Do you have the slightest friggin clue how many "Big Money Corporations" gave to 0bama in 08? Do you know how George Soros made most of his money? How about the reason the drug companies (Who by the way have twice the profit margin on the oil companies) supported 0bama care? No wonder our country is so screwed up......
Don't waste your time...You are banging your head against a wall.
Darth (4 more years) Tang
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
I'm not sure about the incentive for most people, but personally, I do not see a life on welfare as being a desireable option.
Don't get me wrong, I dislike working yet I work. I'm not working because I feel a moral obligation to work, I work to buy things and do things I like. Maybe that isn't enough incentive for everyone, but it is for most people it seems to work.
We will always have the poor, it is not a matter of incentive, its just part out the normal distribution of life, everyone has different abilities and different levels of desire and ambition.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerthunter http:///t/393443/welfare-vs-working-wheres-the-incentive-to-work#post_3500257
I'm not sure about the incentive for most people, but personally, I do not see a life on welfare as being a desireable option.
Don't get me wrong, I dislike working yet I work. I'm not working because I feel a moral obligation to work, I work to buy things and do things I like. Maybe that isn't enough incentive for everyone, but it is for most people it seems to work.
We will always have the poor, it is not a matter of incentive, its just part out the normal distribution of life, everyone has different abilities and different levels of desire and ambition.
I am on disability. I REALLY didn't want to be on disability. It's been 12 years and I still don't like it but there is just no real alternatives unless there a job out there for someone to work out of their recliner LOL!!!! I worked with the state on a vocational rehab program for about a year after I got wiped out but they pulled the plug when it became obvious I wouldn't be able to do full time work again.
I can honestly say that it has become easier to accept my lot over the last 12 years. I can see how someone could grow used to being on welfare, I don't understand it. I was embarrassed at the thought of going on disability. I actually liked working.
 
D

dragonzim

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerthunter http:///t/393443/welfare-vs-working-wheres-the-incentive-to-work#post_3500257
I'm not sure about the incentive for most people, but personally, I do not see a life on welfare as being a desireable option.
Don't get me wrong, I dislike working yet I work. I'm not working because I feel a moral obligation to work, I work to buy things and do things I like. Maybe that isn't enough incentive for everyone, but it is for most people it seems to work.
We will always have the poor, it is not a matter of incentive, its just part out the normal distribution of life, everyone has different abilities and different levels of desire and ambition.
The deciding factor seems to be that you have people that have no skills or education who also have no desire whatsoever to try and better themselves. They can either get a minimum wage job flipping burgers or make the same money by sucking off the goverment teat, so its no contest which one wins.
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member

The deciding factor seems to be that you have people that have no skills or education who also have no desire whatsoever to try and better themselves.  They can either get a minimum wage job flipping burgers or make the same money by sucking off the goverment teat, so its no contest which one wins.
But there are also people who do flip the burgers for next to nothing, so there must be some motivation.
I believe that there will always be people who chose not to work, or who work the minimum, regardless of what the government does or does not do.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393443/welfare-vs-working-wheres-the-incentive-to-work#post_3500180
You mean like G.E.?

And there were other candidates. I was hoping one of them would get 5% of the vote to break up this political monopoly the two parties have....But unfortunately, there are a lot of Sheep in this country.
The libertarian candidate got 1.1 million pop votes. True, hardly nothing in the scheme of things, but that vote also doubled since 2008. If the trend continues to increase, as I think it might, then at some point the libertarians will be a viable political factor. The Republicans lost the hardcore libertarians that may have supported Romney if not for the poor treatment of them at their convention.
I recall a time when no one gave consideration to the Independent voters. Now, they determine who is president.
As for the poor, perhaps resources would be better spend on preventing poverty rather then handing out welfare checks, food debit cards, and free health care and housing.
As for Republicans, hopefully, Romney was the last of the old rich white guy who gets to represent the party. The 1950's type candidate has little appeal. Also, running on a platform of advocating for the wealthy is just never going to be popular.
 
theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393443/welfare-vs-working-wheres-the-incentive-to-work#post_3500185
Are you really not capable of understanding the different rolls a business owner and a president fill? Even if Romney had been this great outsourcer, which he wasn't, THAT WAS HIS JOB IF IT MADE THE COMPANY MORE PROFITABLE. Do you have the slightest friggin clue how many "Big Money Corporations" gave to 0bama in 08? Do you know how George Soros made most of his money? How about the reason the drug companies (Who by the way have twice the profit margin on the oil companies) supported 0bama care? No wonder our country is so screwed up......
Look, as a BUSINESS person, Mitt Romney was very good at what he did. He made his company, and subsequently the shareholders of the companies he took over, a LOT of money. If you are asking me who I would vote for to make me the most money between Obama and Romney for my OWN personal wealth... that's a no brainer. However, making a company profitable in today's world means finding the cheapest manufacturing possible. That's always going to be somewhere other than the United States. So you want the guy who knows how to perfect the art of shipping jobs overseas to make his companies more money, doing the same thing from the White House? If he were elected, would he somehow have changed everything he used to do over night to help the little guy?
As far as George Soros I was under the impression he made most of his money when England's bank was screwing with it's own currency and he made a smart and powerful bet against it? I also know he made a bunch of money in Asia, and I believe was also charged with insider trading back in the 90's if I remember correctly. He's also clearly a democratic supporter, who made it his job to see that W was not reelected. Am I missing something Im sure?
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Unless the Feds created a minimum wage that someone could actually live on, Welfare will never go away. A person can't live unassisted on $15,000/year before taxes. $1100/month can't pay for housing, food, utilities, and basic mandatory expenditures. Factor in a couple of kids, and it's worse. Get sick and you're done. Small businesses cried foul when they raised it to $7.25 a few years ago. Imagine what they'd say if they bumped it up to $10 or $12.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Unless the Feds created a minimum wage that someone could actually live on, Welfare will never go away.  A person can't live unassisted on $15,000/year before taxes.  $1100/month can't pay for housing, food, utilities, and basic mandatory expenditures.  Factor in a couple of kids, and it's worse.  Get sick and you're done.  Small businesses cried foul when they raised it to $7.25 a few years ago.  Imagine what they'd say if they bumped it up to $10 or $12.
And that will continue even with a minimu wage in crease. I shocks me that several here as businesses owners do not grasp this one simple concept. Minimum wage hurts the poor and keeps them poor. If minimum wage goes up...so does the cost of the cheapest goods. If minimum wage goes up 5% cost of everything will also go up 5%. is the minimum wage worker any better off with this?
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member

And that will continue even with a minimu wage in crease. I shocks me that several here as businesses owners do not grasp this one simple concept. Minimum wage hurts the poor and keeps them poor. If minimum wage goes up...so does the cost of the cheapest goods. If minimum wage goes up 5% cost of everything will also go up 5%. is the minimum wage worker any better off with this?
It would be interesting if there was a 1 to 1 postive correlation between minimum wage and consumer staple prices.
Since they actually have data on that, we can see that since 1968 to 2012 the minimum wage had gone up 453% while consumer staple prices rose only 200%. Meaning the data does not support your assumption
 
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