Went on vacation, now fish are dying

hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
Well hypo can certainly cause some stress but it is not immediate. I would maybe wait for some other to give some advice about it. It is a very gradual change whereas medicine is immediate. I would also go to the disease forum and look up how to do it. There are a bunch of threads on here about how to do it.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/2728154
This being stated, most fish tanks support some latent (non-infectious) level of ich.
Ich is ALWAYS in an aquarium.
Do you have a source for this info? I've heard this for years and know seasoned hobbiests who swear its true; but have never seen this theory verified by any credible source...Thanks! I may learn something new.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/2728154
This being stated, most fish tanks support some latent (non-infectious) level of ich.
Ich is ALWAYS in an aquarium.
Do you have a source for this info? I've heard this for years and know seasoned hobbiests who swear its true; but have never seen this theory verified by any credible source...Thanks! I may learn something new.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from us always assuming any white spot is "Ich",Cryptocaryon irritans. Very often, it isn't. Many parasites, skin irritations, diseases, etc can appear as white specks. In fact the white ich spot is really just dead tissue, the parasite is deeper in the flesh of the fish. Most cleaners simply clean this dead tissue and miss the parasite. A good understanding of the ice parasites life cycle makes it clear (at least from everything I've read) that ich cannot survive indefinitely without a host. All it takes is a drop of lfs water to introduce ich into an ich-free tank. I don't put anything into my tanks without QT and have not seen ich in my DTs in many years.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
This was a quote from Bob Fenner at Wet Web Media. I just used initials because I thought it might be considered a competitor web site. hlcrohgan you are confused. Ich in not bacteria, it is not a disease, it is a parasite. A parasite that is always present and needs the right conditions to reproduce fast enough to infest a tank. It is normally kept in check, but when temperature or chemical imbalance leaves the fish stressed, the slime layer thins and allows the ich parasites to penetrate the fish. I repeat, and this is a scientific fact, ICH IS NOT A DISEASE. It is a parasite. And it would be very rare for an aquarium to be so isolated, as not to have any ich parasites. I guess it is possible, but very unlikely. As I stated, I had NO NEW arrivals in a tank for 8 MONTHS and after a couple days of on and off electric in the winter, my fish developed a massive case of ich. If you insist, I will spend a couple hours online and link dozens of articles from Kordons, Aquarium Pharmacueticals, Wet Web Media, etc, etc. Or, you can simply pick up a bottle of ich treatment and read that they are parasites.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/post/2729372
This was a quote from Bob Fenner at Wet Web Media. I just used initials because I thought it might be considered a competitor web site. hlcrohgan you are confused. Ich in not bacteria, it is not a disease, it is a parasite. A parasite that is always present and needs the right conditions to reproduce fast enough to infest a tank. It is normally kept in check, but when temperature or chemical imbalance leaves the fish stressed, the slime layer thins and allows the ich parasites to penetrate the fish. I repeat, and this is a scientific fact, ICH IS NOT A DISEASE. It is a parasite. And it would be very rare for an aquarium to be so isolated, as not to have any ich parasites. I guess it is possible, but very unlikely. As I stated, I had NO NEW arrivals in a tank for 8 MONTHS and after a couple days of on and off electric in the winter, my fish developed a massive case of ich. If you insist, I will spend a couple hours online and link dozens of articles from Kordons, Aquarium Pharmacueticals, Wet Web Media, etc, etc. Or, you can simply pick up a bottle of ich treatment and read that they are parasites.
We may be talking about 2 different situations. Tanks with fish; and tanks where all fish have been removed.. I believe ich can live in small numbers as long as there are fish present and as long as everything is healthy, there will be minimal (often going unnoticed) ich infestation. However, if a tank has no fish to host the parasite and remains fishless for several weeks; ich cannot live and to continue to exist in the tank. LR and inverts can still be in the tank, they will not provide a host for the ich parasite. Bottom line, from all I've read, is that if all fish are removed for several weeks the ich parasite problem is eliminated. Here is a bit from our host on the subject, one of many.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/f/
There's a lot of reading on this link; but here's a quote that sums my point:
"Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite, meaning that it requires a suitable host to complete its life cycle. If an aquarium is without fish for a long enough period of time this parasite will die out from a lack of host.
 
hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
I never said that is was a disease or bacteria. I was simply giving an example that just because it is around does not mean that every fish has it. That is like bacteria being around humans and saying we are always sick. I am aware that it is a parasite. Therefore it needs a host. It cannot live if it does not have one, it will starve. If you hypo a tank, ich cannot live in hyposalinated water and they die. Therefore no more ich in the tank. And no matter how stressed they get they cannot get ich. It does not mean they will not get sick at some point but it won't be ich because it no longer exists in the tank.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2729895
I never said that is was a disease or bacteria. I was simply giving an example that just because it is around does not mean that every fish has it. That is like bacteria being around humans and saying we are always sick. I am aware that it is a parasite. Therefore it needs a host. It cannot live if it does not have one, it will starve. If you hypo a tank, ich cannot live in hyposalinated water and they die. Therefore no more ich in the tank. And no matter how stressed they get they cannot get ich. It does not mean they will not get sick at some point but it won't be ich because it no longer exists in the tank.
I know hypo kills the free swimming stage; but don't know if it kills the dormant stage. Does it? I've always heard that the only way to be sure its wiped out is to let a tank go fishless for 4+ weeks.
 
hlcroghan

hlcroghan

Active Member
I am not sure. I would have to look up the research for that. I can't imagine that it wouldn't affect it though.
 
michelle9491

michelle9491

Member
Just an update, fish are really improving, still have a ways to go though. Will start hypo as soon as they improve a little more.
The conversation about ich is very interesting. Makes me almost want to go buy a book & learn more, lol. Is there not any scientific proof, not just theories any where?
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by michelle9491
http:///forum/post/2730545
Just an update, fish are really improving, still have a ways to go though. Will start hypo as soon as they improve a little more.
The conversation about ich is very interesting. Makes me almost want to go buy a book & learn more, lol. Is there not any scientific proof, not just theories any where?

Read the thread in post # 24 above. Or, google the scientific name of the parasite: Cryptocaryon irritans.
 
spiderwoman

spiderwoman

Active Member
If I were you, I would not be comfortable with knowing that there is ICK in the tank and even though the fish look good now, that just means that the parasite has detached from them and are now hatching in the tank, ready to release a few hundred new parasites each. I would hypo the tank ASAP.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by SpiderWoman
http:///forum/post/2731025
If I were you, I would not be comfortable with knowing that there is ICK in the tank and even though the fish look good now, that just means that the parasite has detached from them and are now hatching in the tank, ready to release a few hundred new parasites each. I would hypo the tank ASAP.
Yeah, for sure. This thread has been so confusing (may just be me, I'm getting old) that I have no idea if ich is present in the tank. But if you think it may be, every day is critical.
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Ich can most certainly be in a tank with fish and not show itself until the fish is stressed. Fish can fight ich off of their bodies if they are healthy. Ich still attaches to the soft gill tissue. Not many parasites do, but enough for it to reproduce and keep the cycle going. Once the fish is stressed then each parasite reproduces by the hundreds. You could have thousands in there within a week. Now, you also mentioned a bubble stone, or air diffuser, and that the fish was laying on it gasping. Do you have powerheads in this tank? What are your EXACT readings for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, KH, SG, and temp?
 
michelle9491

michelle9491

Member
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2732753
Ich can most certainly be in a tank with fish and not show itself until the fish is stressed. Fish can fight ich off of their bodies if they are healthy. Ich still attaches to the soft gill tissue. Not many parasites do, but enough for it to reproduce and keep the cycle going. Once the fish is stressed then each parasite reproduces by the hundreds. You could have thousands in there within a week. Now, you also mentioned a bubble stone, or air diffuser, and that the fish was laying on it gasping. Do you have powerheads in this tank? What are your EXACT readings for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, KH, SG, and temp?
water readings now & for the last week, checked several times daily with brand new test kit:
ph 8.3
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 40
sg 1.023
temp 78
yes i have powerheads
just a recap, when i got back, ph was way low, nitrates high, ammonia & nitrite a little high, did water change. ich seemed present on puffer, cloudy eyes on puffer & lion, grouper just laying there.
treated with formulin 3 for ich, & furan 2 for cloudy eyes, 2nd infection. medicine seemed to make fish worse after several days. Water changes daily,
then added 2poly filters, carbon, amqel + & begone to remove medication. Fish are still laying on the bottom except for lion. The puffer still has some ich like spots, always hiding hard to tell, but laying on the sand under a rock, not normal. Lion really seems okay, but loves the air stone. Grouper keeps changing colors & laying around, which i know they do, but I know the fish & its not normal, & he like bobs for air or lays on the other air stone. All this since 8/11. Also added tlc bacteria 2 days ago. No change in several days, not worse, but not better. The puffer & lion will still eat. Grouper is just pissed cause he is moody normally, but i know does not feel good also.
Ordered a refractometer to do hypo. So thats where i am now. No problems for a year now this. Thanks for replying sepulatian. Hate to repeat myself just seems like the whole thread is not being read sometimes, so just a recap.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Still no deaths after two weeks? That's very unusual. Fish eating is a good sign. I still expect something toxic; that could stress fish and allow an ich problem. Are ich spots getting worse, still just on one fish? I know its hard to tell; but if the white spots have remained in the same spot on the puffer and not shown up elsewhere; I doubt it is ich. But, ich can infest gills (usually a favorite spot). & other hard to see areas What is tic bacteria? If this is one of the instant bacteria cycle starters, your ammonia & nitrite have been fine; so you don't need it. It probably won't hurt, but some forms of commercial bacteria can overpower your existing bio-filter bacteria. Nitrates are nowhere near a dangerous level for fish. Hypo may help and certainly is needed if your tank has ever been infected by ich (most have). Fish tolerate hypo very well, in fact, very low SG can actually be good for fish. I'm babbling, but trying to make the best educated guess that I can.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
michelle9491

michelle9491

Member
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2734536
Still no deaths after two weeks? That's very unusual. Fish eating is a good sign. I still expect something toxic; that could stress fish and allow an ich problem. Are ich spots getting worse, still just on one fish? I know its hard to tell; but if the white spots have remained in the same spot on the puffer and not shown up elsewhere; I doubt it is ich. But, ich can infest gills (usually a favorite spot). & other hard to see areas What is tic bacteria? If this is one of the instant bacteria cycle starters, your ammonia & nitrite have been fine; so you don't need it. It probably won't hurt, but some forms of commercial bacteria can overpower your existing bio-filter bacteria. Nitrates are nowhere near a dangerous level for fish. Hypo may help and certainly is needed if your tank has ever been infected by ich (most have). Fish tolerate hypo very well, in fact, very low SG can actually be good for fish. I'm babbling, but trying to make the best educated guess that I can.
hi again srfisher! yes no deaths, but still not that much improvement, but some. The puffer still has some of the spots, grouper & lion none, i think. Ive stared at the fish so much I am getting cross eyed. I ordered a refractometer so i can do hypo, not here yet. Starting to think I am seeing things
, but I know I'm not.
Grouper still wont eat, but hes so moody, not really that unusual for him. Lion will eat if I dont use the vitamins, else he spits it out & the puffer is eating good considering. He loves me so much he took a chunk out of my finger, I took a pic of it, maybe I will post that! Damn that hurt!
It's TLC & yes, commercial bacteria. I did so many water changes that I'm sure it needed it.
So I am now waiting, not much else I can do. Thanks for the info about the hypo, fish tolerating it so well. I was afraid after all Ive done it might make it worse, so that info makes me feel better.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Water changes shouldn't effect your bacteria; they live in the LR, substrate, filter media, etc...not in the water column. I think you could replace 90% of your water at once and not effect your bio-filter very much. If you're going to hypo, I assume you've read up on it; you could get started and use your hydrometer until the refractometer comes. You really need the more accurate readings when you have dropped the sg closer to the low range. IMO, if you're treating ich...the sooner you start, the better.
 
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