Wet/Dry vs Canister

[nate_m]

Here is what would make my life so much easier.
I can fit a 10g in my cabinet. I could take the output of the continuous siphon output and connect that to the input of the skimmer. Then the skimmer output into the fuge. Is there any good reason that the skimmer is actually in the fuge tank? Issues or comments?
Thanks,

 

[nate_m]

Little block diagram of my latest idea.

Question of the night is this: Any issue with having the skimmer external to 15g fuge tank? Any chance for this guy to malfuction and spew water all over the floor?

 

[stanlalee]

on most affordable skimmers the skimmer pump is plumped directly to the skimmer intake so that wont work on those designed to work in sump (you could just put the skimmer pump in the sump and run it to the skimmer outside the sump but it may not perform well due to plumbling loss) There are several higher end skimmers where only the pump need be placed in the sump (usually use relatively big pumps for a skimmer).
You best bet is a recirc skimmer. you still have to run the tank overflow drain into the sump but all you need to place in the sump for the skimmer is a small powerhead (usually 1.5x the tank volume so for a 100g you'd use a small 150gph powerhead in the sump to feed into the skimmer).
Here's Pacific Coast Imports RPM series (from $200-400 with the smallest one rated to 125g)
the

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on the right above the closed loop skimmer pump needs to be fed by the powerhead in the sump and the output pipe on the right needs to be plumped back into the sump but the skimmer itself can sit in or out the sump. Deltec, Euroreef and others make recircs but they'll cost alot more than the pacific coast/octopus recircs which are basically deltec knock offs (like ASM are euroreef knock offs).

It would install like this

 

[nate_m]

Got it. Sounds like the best answer so far.
One question though. Why can't you plumb straight from the continuous siphon overflow directly into the skimmer? From what I saw they do like 600gph or so. Just wondering the reason.
Thanks for all the help

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by Nate_m
Got it. Sounds like the best answer so far.
One question though. Why can't you plumb straight from the continuous siphon overflow directly into the skimmer? From what I saw they do like 600gph or so. Just wondering the reason.
Thanks for all the help

Well I can think of a few reasons why it probably wont work.
a) most skimmers are adjusted by choking the water output to raise the water level within the skimmer and vise versa. choking the output is not really what you want to do with an overflow. the overflow drains whatever rate the pump is forcing water back into your tank. If you restrict the output at all the return pump isn't going to slow down with it and you'll likely end up overflowing the tank.
b)most skimmers require some form of air injection (which usually is just a hole in the pump with a line running above the water line sometimes with a valve to adjust airflow). even if you rig a hole and line into the siphon return line I doubt it has enough positive pressure to inject the kind of air needed. At the very least you'd probably need an air injection pump
c) most skimmers input orifice is way too small to even consider flowing the amount of water an overflow box drains without the help of positive pressure (from a pump). even still a skimmer with a 400gph rated pump is only actually flowing about 200 or so gph of water due to air injection. More than likely the skimmer itself would restrict the flow of the output causing again your tank to overflow.
d) even if it could work you'd have to match the skimmer to the output of the tank overflow. you'd have to get the right size return pump, thats matched to the overflow box rating, account for plumbing loss and have a skimmer thats matched to accept that flow rate (after you account for the effects of air injection).
e) its just a bad idea to run a skimmer other than how its meant to be installed.
That said if you really want a totally sumpless skimmer there is one called the Terminator II. you buy the sumpless kit seperately and you'll need a 300gph pump. the skimmer is about $150, the sumpless kit is another $100 and another $20-40 for the recommended water pump choices.
skimmer
http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20051025232910/www.**************.com/images/Categoryimages/larger/lg_22925_31212P.jpg
sumpless kit
http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20050729155157/www.**************.com/images/bigimages/lg_16975_V.jpg

 

[nate_m]

Alright. Sorry for all the questions.
Here is my latest updates based on your advice.

Need a couple of ball valves on the CSO and return pump to match flow rates. Once everything is stable how do i guarantee the sump doesn't overflow when the power goes out? I'm guessing that the CSO level has to be set accordingly so is stops siphoning water before the sump overflows. Also how how to the overflow/baffels need to be on an 18" tank? 12"?
If everything looks good I'm going to start purchasing the goods. What do I need to buy to set up the refugium? Noticed there is 'mud' and some people just use a DSB? Recommendation?
Thanks,

 

[stanlalee]

shouldn't lose siphon if your U tube is long enough. even if you do its not the power going out that overflows you. its when the power comes back on and the pump starts pumping water back into the tank when the siphon is broke. only a problem if your not at home/sleep. If your home you can just unplug the return pump when the power goes out to prevent that when the power comes back on.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/232762/u-tube-oveflow-box-should-never-break-siphon
People who use mud seem to like mud. Me personally a) it cost too much b) nobody knows exactly whats in it c) sand achieves the same end result for a fraction of the cost.
you dont need any ball valves. All you need to do is make sure the return pump doesn't exceed the rating of the overflow box. So if you have an overflow box rated at 600gph you can not pump more than 600gph into the tank from the return pump. there is plumbing loss from the pump pushing water up several ft. so you if you have a 600gph overflow you can use a 700gph pump since by the time it reaches your tank its only pumping about 500gph depending on the pump.

 

[nate_m]

That link was just want I needed to understand the overflow box.
Been thinking about the flow rates and was wondering what you recommended for an overall refugium flow rate? Looks like two options for overflow boxes are 300 and 600. The 600 adds and extra inch behind my tank which isn't a big deal but something to think about.
The other question I had was about the baffles or tank separators. If im using a power head to push water to the skimmer and I had some reasonable diffuser for water coming from the overflow box do I really need a divider/baffel on the left side of the refugium? Then on the right side if I drilled the tank and put the pump inline on the outside of the tank I could get rid of that baffle/divider thus maximizing the refugium capacity.
Anything I'm missing?

 

[stanlalee]

the baffle on the left side is basically to keep the fuge from being too stirred up from the return drain and if you were to have a skimmer in it to keep sand and what not out. If you are going to mount the pump/powerhead well above the sand (which closer to the surface is usually better anyway) you dont necessarily need it. you just have to be mindful of your return drains placement so its not stirring up the sand/splashing ect. perhaps submerged a few inches below the sump waterline. the baffles before the pump are definately needed to prevent micro bubbles from returning to the display

 

[nate_m]

Guess I'll just go ahead and put the dividers in.
Is it just a divider or a baffle? I'm guessing the left side would just be a 10" divider and the right side would be a baffle to remove micro bubbles. Any rule for baffle separation?

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by Nate_m
Guess I'll just go ahead and put the dividers in.
Is it just a divider or a baffle? I'm guessing the left side would just be a 10" divider and the right side would be a baffle to remove micro bubbles. Any rule for baffle separation?
see pics of mine. On the purchased one its just a divider which is fine (all it needs to do is seperate the fuge area from the skimmer area. water flows into the fuge section above it. on the homemade I made baffles but in retro spec other than further bubble prevention it really wasn't neccessary like it is on the return pump side.

 

[nate_m]

is 700gph to much flow for this setup?
Gonna go with the lifereef overflow box and a mag drive 7. :jumping:

 

[stanlalee]

that should work fine if the lifereef is rated at 600gph. the flow wont actually be 700gph. thats what the pump is rated at at zero head height but it should get you over 400gph turnover. Be like a big powerhead installed in the tank.