What is this sump/equipment?

marty

Member
We just bought a used tank, stand, canopy, rock, etc... and it came with a sump/filtration I am not familiar with. It's an acrylic sump, but has 4 cylindar units on one end that the previous owner had phospate (sp??) sponge in one of the units. One of the 4 cylindar units is a protein skimmer.
I will try to take my camera to work tomorrow to get pics, but wondering tonight what this equipment is? TIA
 

marty

Member
Without looking at it, a assistant manager at a local fish store thought it might be a DAS (dutch aquarium system), but I can't find any links to pictures of such. Tried goggle, but got actual tanks, not sumps. Thoughts?
 

talath

Member
Here's a brief excerpt on a Dutch system. This is information by John H Tullock. So I'll give him the credit he deserves.
"I call systems featuring a trickle or wet/dry filter Dutch-style aquariums, and there is no doubt that these relatively complex setups ushered in a revolution in marine husbandry. The introduction by Dutch proponent George Smit of the wet/dry filter, adapted from wastewater treatment technology, resulted in a new wave of interest in minireef aquarium keeping. This new filter system was much more efficient than the undergravel filter and bypassed many of the former systm's drawbacks (Smit, 1986a,1986b). The filter media, kept wet but elevated above the water level of a sump, could support large populations of nitrifying bacteria that seldom or never had to be disturbed by cleaning sessions. The trickling flow of water provided on excellent situation for gas exchange and oxygenation of the system water. The Dutch method also relied largely upon fluorescent lamps as light source and frequently employed additional techniques, such as ozonization, to cope with organic matter.
Unfortunately, wet/dry filter systems relied on exactly the same biological approach as the old undergravel models: mineralization of nitrogenous wastes through bacterial activity. This eliminates problems with ammonia toxicity, but creates a new set of problems related to accumulation of nitrate and reduction of pH due to the generation of hydrogen ions. Fish are not particularly sensitive to nitrate, even in high concentrations, and their osmoregulatory systems can function over a range of pH. As long as marine aquariums were constructed of artificial materials, and stocked only with an appropriate assortment of fishes, water chemistry resulting from biological activity could be satifactorily maintained with an undergravel filter and a program of regular partial water changes. Wehn invertebrates and seaweeds were included, however, only the hardiest species -- hermit crabs, sea urchins, and predatory starfish, to name some popular examples -- could survive for long, unless the system was built along the lines described by Smit. His success was attributed to the supposed improvements embodied by the wet/dry filter. Smit's aquariums were beautiful displays of invertebrates, with much live rock and abundant macroalgae growth. Owing to the presence of these important factors, they sustained diverse communities of organisms, perhaps despite their utilization of the we/dry system.
Smit's original designs were marketed in the United States by International Seaboard, in Cicero, ILL. In 1987, my partner, J.R. Shute, and I made the eight-hour trek to Chicago to visit the factory and see Smit's aquariums for ourselves. We had just begun a tiny business called Aquatic Specialists and were interested in bringing this new technology to our customers. We had read Smit's articles, too, and we thought that new opportunities might be opening for our business. We enjoyed meeting Smit and his corporate sales people. We bought a poorly made filter, possibly a factory prototype, and some less than satisfactory European-made fluorescent end caps, and brouth them back to Tennessee. We spent about $300, as I recall. Looking back, I can admit to myself that Smit's tanks looked pretty much like the ones I had been doing for the last several years. The only difference was that mine were stocked with Florida Keys inshore species I had collected myself or purchased from collectors I met in Florida. Smit's aquariums had a variety of Indo-Pacific invertebrates. In retrospect, J.R. and I were a couple of rubes, accepting the idea that the filter was the key to success, paying out our money and refusing to accept the evidence of our own experience -- that our aquariums were doing just fine the way they were."

In short, your LFS believes you've got a wet/dry system and enjoys saying "Dutch System", which is as fun as saying San Francisco. In truth, you could employ your cylinders for a variety of uses, such as:
  • Protein Skimmer (obviously has a cup atop it)
  • Sulphur Denitrator
  • Calcium Carbonate Reactor (following Sulphur Denitrator)
    Phosban Chamber
    Kalkwasser Reactor
    Fluidized Silica Bed
Have you got a couple of pics?
 

talath

Member
I see the cylinder in the bottom picture that is in the foreground and on the left has some red staining on it. That may be from an iron oxide based phosban type reagent. Does the cylinder to the right of it have some yellow material stuck to it at the top? I see something in the picture that looks like either yellow sulphur or just a piece of yellowish aragonite. Both of the cylinders have some rather small blue tubing coming from the top. If you are wanting to use a sulphur denitrator, you may wish to route the effluent from the sulphur denitrator to the influent of an aragonite filled cylinder. The denitrator has a habit of reducing pH, where the aragonite will re-buffer it with the added benefit of disassociating calcium ions.
One of the cylinders has a larger diameter PVC "street angle" coming off of the top. Where does that PVC go?
The top right cylinder in the top photo has a hole in the top of it, did that hole come with a protein skimmer cup in it?
 

marty

Member
Talath, I appreciate your help. I will check on the color remains and where the PVC goes to tomorrow when I get back to work. The top right does come with a cup as it is the skimmer.
Are the benefits of a sulfur denitator and an aragonite filled cylinder really beneficial? I plan to have a 29 gallon refugium also with macro algae and such, so curious if this is a good way to use the cylindars. If it is, and I go with a sulfur denitator and an aragonite filled cylinders, would the water flow from the overflow be sufficient? If not, what would I need?
In your first reply, I was looking at a calcium reactors. The tank is 110 gallon tank with 4 96watt PC bulbs. I hope to end up with 4' dsb along with at least 150lbs of live rock (about 80-100 is "dead" live rock that the previous owner had sitting for quite a while out of water).
Thanks!
 

marty

Member
A couple more pics. The PVC pipe from the top right cylindar goes to the middle where a hole is that can go to the bottom (see pics for more). I pulled the two front cylindars out and took a couple pics of them.
Also, the intake cylindar has what appears to be a sponge filter at the bottom.
Thanks!



 

marty

Member
Originally Posted by talath
In truth, you could employ your cylinders for a variety of uses, such as:
  • Protein Skimmer (obviously has a cup atop it)
  • Sulphur Denitrator
  • Calcium Carbonate Reactor (following Sulphur Denitrator)
    Phosban Chamber
    Kalkwasser Reactor
    Fluidized Silica Bed
If I do any of these, what equipment do I need to buy?
 

talath

Member
A protein skimmer you've got, and will certainly want to keep. If you decide to create a refugium to grow macro algae and pods, you may want to minimize other systems. Still, the two cylinders that are linked at the bottom would be perfect for a sulfur denitrator followed by an aragonite chamber. You've just got to decide if you want one, or not. Sulfur denitrators alone have a tendency to reduce the pH of their effluent. To combat/take advantage of this, you can follow the denitrator's effluent with an aragonite sand chamber. The lower pH will dissolve calcium ion making it available to your corals. In doing so, the pH will climb back up where it needs to be.
I melt powdered sulphur down and combine it with slaked and dried limestone slurry (CaCO3). I bring the sulfur up to ~300°F to melt it and slowly mix in the limestone. The final mixture consists of 2 parts of sulphur to 1 part of limestone (by volume) The sulphur I use is 100% sulphur. The limestone I use is commonly sold as #10 white. With this mixture I can keep the proportional values to support the reaction set forth by Liu & Koenig 55S + 44CaCO3 + 50NO3(-) + 18H20 + 4NH4(+) ----> 4C5H7O2N + 25N2 + 55SO4(2-) + 44Ca(2+) + 24HCO3(-) (Liu & Koenig 2002). Following this mixture with an aragonite chamber, as the two interconnected cylinders would allow, would further buffer the effluent to the proper pH, and also dissociate a few more calcium ions.
Before you set out on making a sulphur denitrator, find out more about them. There are a few links out there describing the long term observations of these systems. Also, keep an eye on the pH of the effluent. Many european systems use sulphur denitrators. With the hocus-pocus view of aquarium keeping that we seem to have, Americans tend to follow, versus innovate. Still, a cautious approach might be prudent. Find out more for yourself and see if it's a fit. Bear in mind, the autotrophic approach trades sulfates for nitrates, and there is some speculation to the chronic effects of latent sulfates.
Your refugium will have a high denitrating potential, and only use natural means. It will also supply pods and macro-algae for you, and can exist as a nursery for fry. Still the autotrophic sulphur denitrator may be able to normalize some nitrogen peaks, thereby affording a little more comfort.
As for powering such a device, you'll definitely need to pressurize the system with a powerhead or shunt some of your main pump pressure to it using a reduced "wye" fitting. Depending on the height of your overflow standpipe, you may be able to tap into some of that pressure, however overflow standpipes aren't typically flooded, and saltwater only supplies 0.455 psi per vertical foot, so it wouldn't be motivated to enter the denitrator. Your pump or a submerged powerhead would be the best bet.
 

talath

Member
To produce a fluidized silica bed reactor, you'll need to commit one of your cylinders. You'd power one of the cylinders with a submerged powerhead. You pump water into the bottom of the cylinder, through a "bed" of silica sand, and out the top. Three things are important to this set-up.
  • The sand must be of sufficient size and quantity so that it does not get shot out the effluent by the flow of the powerhead.
  • The powerhead must be powerful enough to keep the sand moving. You don't want it to settle anywhere in the cylinder.
    You'll want to run a hose from the powerhead output, up over the top of the unit, and back down to the inlet on the bottom. This will keep sand from getting into the impeller in case there is a power outage.
I've got several grades of sand and could send you enough to fill a fluidized bed if you desire it. You could then experiment to find which grade of sand best suits your powerhead and bed depth. Large fluidized beds have the capability to supply acres of denitrifying surface area. In addition, they do not suffer from the sloughing of "scum" associated with wet/dry filters, as the bed is in constant motion and can not produce a layer of dead bacteria as wet/dry filters can.
 

marty

Member
Many thanks for the depth of information, talath.
I'm probably not ready for a sulphur denitrator, but am interested in the fluidized silica bed reactor. You mentioned the different grades/sizes. PM me for more info on this. Also, where could I get some more after I decide what size? Where do I find media/sponge to keep the sand (or other media) inside the cylindars?
Thanks!
 

talath

Member
Hmm,
It didn't let me message you. Still, you can find the glass shot (pure silica sand) in Dallas at Burr Off Industries
I've got glass beads, all the way down to glass dust. I've also got sulphur and calcium carbonate. e-mail me at talath_dirnen at hotmail dto com and I can send some off.
 

talath

Member
By the way, stay away from the "ceramic shot". While ceramic sounds nice to aquarists, to the abrasives industry ceramic is also known as silicon carbide and tungsten carbide. Don't use it, please!
:happyfish
 
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