What to do now

[gnorman]

hey guys
i dont know where to start. as some of you may know, i recently set up our 150G lee mar tank the start of this year. about 1 and a half months ago or so i noticed white spots on some of my fishes bodies and fins. first thought was ich. it would appear at night when the lights would go off and in the moring when the lights would come back on. during the day an hr after lights on and an hr after lights off, there were no white spots on this fish. i went to my LFS and talked to him about it and he said that it was a PH issue.
anyways, i have had 2 of our main show fish pass away suddenely without any notice. our sargassum trigger fish and today ( my favorite fish ) our male blond naso tang from the red sea. the trigger fish passed away about a month ago. all the sudden, it seemed as if it was gasping for air and very stressed out. i fed him, and turned off the lights. he seemed to be fine. the next day when i came home from school he was dead. today i got home from school and our blond naso was breating heavily also. i fed him seaweed and he ate like a pig, then 4 hrs later i went to the tank and he was wedge in the rocks not looking so good. he passed away today.* both fish never showed any signs of ich on them ( white spots on skin )
all while this has been going on, i have noticed on some fish small white dots. i added a male blue jaw trigger 2 weeks ago and 4 days after i added him i noticed a huge population of Ich on him. i used ich attack ( waste of time and money )... the trigger is looking better as of now tho.
i am sick of all the unexpected deaths in my tank. my 2 favorite fish have gone off and passed away. im not sure of the actual cause but i am most positively sure i have ich in my tank.
could anyone please help me out and tell me where to go from here. i could type for another hr about this but i dont want to make it too long. please ask me ask ?s about my tank ect and i will answer then
thanks for your help
eric-

 

[nicetry]

Start by posting your present water parameters; Specifically pH, salinity, nitrates.
I'm guessing you do not quarantine any of your fish before placing them in the main tank. This is very risky, as you're likely introducing pathogens to your system, as you've seen.
What fish do you have in the tank now? Are you willing to set up a quarantine system to treat your fish properly? What type of inverts do you have in the tank? Is there live rock and how much? What kind of substrate?

 

[gnorman]

Originally Posted by nicetry
Start by posting your present water parameters; Specifically pH, salinity, nitrates.
I'm guessing you do not quarantine any of your fish before placing them in the main tank. This is very risky, as you're likely introducing pathogens to your system, as you've seen.
What fish do you have in the tank now? Are you willing to set up a quarantine system to treat your fish properly? What type of inverts do you have in the tank? Is there live rock and how much? What kind of substrate?
i dont know my water parameters as of this moment. but when i check them my trites are always 0 but my trates are between 20-30 PPM. my temp sits around 82. PH is 82 and my SG is 1.025. i do not QT my fish ( i didnt have an extra tank )
3 green reef chromis
1 diamond goby
1 longnose hawkfish
1 orange tail fiji puffer
2 percs
1 green bird wrasse
All the above have never shown signs of ich ( white spots on body)
1 raccoon butterfly
1 emperor angel ( juvi)
1 male blue jaw
and i had my male blond naso but it died today as i said above
1 cleaner shrimp
i just bought a 29G tank this past weekend. i have it filled with 10 gallons of SW from a water change. i have a heater for it but thats it. i need to buy a power head, and i guess some sort of filter. Aqua C Hang on skimmer???.....
i have around 130 pounts of Fiji and marshall island deep live rock and when i added the sand i did 80 pounds of base and 60 pounds of Live sand on top

 

[nicetry]

The problem is that every one of the fish has to be treated. All have been exposed and even though some have had no symptoms, they may be viable hosts and keep the parasite alive. Since you can't put all of the fish in the 29,
you have the option of treating your display tank. If you're prepared to remove all of your rock, any inverts, and sand (only if it has a lot of worms or other life forms), then you can perform hyposalinity in your display. The rock/inverts can be placed in rubbermaid tubs or trash cans with a heater and powerhead.

 

[gnorman]

i may have 2 29 gallon tanks open for use... there is one fish in my FW tank and i might as well just take it back to the store and use that tank as a hospital tank. its an eclipse 3 system 29 G tall tank. i would have to scrub out the entire and and such. would all of those fish work in those 2 tanks?
and also, if i do perform the salt thing, how long do you need to do it for? is it a matter of months or days. also, i have as 30 gallon sump with a 15 watt UV and a euro reef skimmer rated for 250 gallons. i also have a fuge in the sump.
should i be treating for ich for sure?

 

[nicetry]

It's evident that you do have ich in your tank and treating for such is your first line of defense. The second tank is going to help but you'll have to be really creative in mixing the fish so that there are a couple of larger ones and a few small ones in each system.
Hyposalinity is outlined in the FAQ's at the top of this forum. Also check out the info on quarantine tank set-ups.

 

[murph]

Well for what its worth here is what I would do if I were in your place.
First return all fish to LFS hopefully for store credit. Use this to start buying necessary dry goods and equipment to turn the tank to a true reef tank and leave tank fish less for at least 6 weeks. After this consider fish a secondary facit of the tank and or necessary evil to keep tank cycle and help provide food for inverts and corals.
These days there is a whole laundry list of things that are totally out of your control as far as fish are concerned and lead to expensive losses. Lets me name a few.
Parasites as you know. Its is difficult to keep tanks free of them these days and impossible for the LFS without the use of second on the list.
copper formalin etc. All these chemicals can significantly reduce the life span of most species and out right kill them at improper doses. At some level any fish you buy will have been exposed to these chemicals and often in improper dosage.
Poor capture, shipping and handling techniques. Cyanide capture is still common especially from indo pacific regions. Improper shipping and handling procedures also significantly add to mortality even after they reach the end user.
A tank your size could provide for a spectacular soft coral garden accompanied by wide variety of other inverts. For fish; cheap, easy, reef safe and sparse. Low fish load means it will be easy to maintain pristine water conditions.
If you went to the expense of metal halides for this tank you could even venture into the world of small polyp stonies. At any rate your fish worries would be a thing of the past.

 

[gnorman]

Originally Posted by Murph
Well for what its worth here is what I would do if I were in your place.
First return all fish to LFS hopefully for store credit. Use this to start buying necessary dry goods and equipment to turn the tank to a true reef tank and leave tank fish less for at least 6 weeks. After this consider fish a secondary facit of the tank and or necessary evil to keep tank cycle and help provide food for inverts and corals.
These days there is a whole laundry list of things that are totally out of your control as far as fish are concerned and lead to expensive losses. Lets me name a few.
Parasites as you know. Its is difficult to keep tanks free of them these days and impossible for the LFS without the use of second on the list.
copper formalin etc. All these chemicals can significantly reduce the life span of most species and out right kill them at improper doses. At some level any fish you buy will have been exposed to these chemicals and often in improper dosage.
Poor capture, shipping and handling techniques. Cyanide capture is still common especially from indo pacific regions. Improper shipping and handling procedures also significantly add to mortality even after they reach the end user.
A tank your size could provide for a spectacular soft coral garden accompanied by wide variety of other inverts. For fish; cheap, easy, reef safe and sparse. Low fish load means it will be easy to maintain pristine water conditions.
If you went to the expense of metal halides for this tank you could even venture into the world of small polyp stonies. At any rate your fish worries would be a thing of the past.
thanks for all the advice but i do have some ?s
first off, would a LFS take back fish that are infected with ICH? and if so, why in the right mind would they? wouldnt it infect fish already in their tanks?
2nd off, are you saying that if i return all my fish then i will be able to start adding corals right away? i never planned on doing a reef tank b.c of the expensive lighting and all the money you can spend on all the corals. right now i have around 400 watts of PC lighting... i have only done leathers b.c my raccoon will tear anything else i put in to shreds.
last of all, i leave for college in the fall or winter and then after a semester of college im leaving for a 2 year mission for my church- all while- my little brother/parents will be taking care of the tank at our home. i will be away from the tank for basically the rest of my life and the responsibility of the tank - at the start of fall, will rest on my little brother/parents and i want to make it as easy as possible for them.
b.c of that, i also decided to not go reef.
i dont think returning all the fish is an option. so what to do now, should i set up both tanks and just QT the fish and then let the DT fishless for 6 weeks? is that long enough for all of the ICH to die off or is there ways that the ICH can survive.

 

[nicetry]

IMO, it would be unscrupulous to knowingly return fish that are sick. If you are certain you want to maintain the tank, and have family care for it after you leave, then treat the fish you have. If the main tank is left w/o fish for 6 weeks, the parasite will die off for lack of a host.
Set up the 2 29s as quarantine tanks. I would buy a couple pieces of eggcrate and fashion two tank dividers. You might not need them but if there is aggression, you can at least separate the fish while they are being treated.

 

[sepulatian]

This tank had ich in it. You absolutely must either set up a qt for your fish or set up a qt or rubbermaid tub for your inverts and rock. They have to be seperated. I would rather you hypo the display, but it depends on how much LR, LS, and inverts you have.

 

[gnorman]

i really dont want to remove all of my LR and LS.... just removing it out of the tank will prob start a spike in my ammonium and all that good stuff......

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by GNorman
i really dont want to remove all of my LR and LS.... just removing it out of the tank will prob start a spike in my ammonium and all that good stuff......
If you have a lot of LR and LS, then you should be setting up a qt tank large enough for all of your fish. You should pick up several sponge filters to add to your diapay. Let them sit in a high flow area for a few days to gather bacteria.

 

[gnorman]

why would i need sponge filters in the DT if the fish are going in a QT tank?

 

[nicetry]

The sponge filters get placed in the QT to maintain cycle. You only place them in the DT first to allow the bacteria cultures to colonize.

 

[murph]

Most all of the fish LFS receive in from there suppliers are exposed to ich. You should be able to work something out.
However now that you have described your situation better I believe a reef tank or even a Fish only with LR is probably not the best alternative here. The simplest tank to maintain for you and your family during your absences Will be a fish only aquarium.
My advice now would be to return your LR and inverts and even the light fixture. Use base rock and in smaller amounts. Your substrate filter media and even the glass will maintain enough bacteria to keep the tank cycled. You will then be free to treat the fish in your existing tank with hypo salinity or even copper if there are no future plans in the way of inverts for this tank.
I realize this is quite a reversal from my previous advice but believe it or not this is how all tanks were before the advent of live rock and the current trend toward reef systems. The use of a standard low wattage light fixture will go a long way in limiting algae concerns and bulb replacement cost and when hypo treatment is not being administered snails can also be employed. A yellow tang will also work wonderfully for mowing down any algae. The use of treated tap water rather than expensive ro would probably not present a significant problem for a system like this either.
If there is enough ambient light from the room the tank is in your fish will be fine with that and your lighting schedule can be limited to when you are actually there to view the tank. This combined with the fact that you could add a significant amount of flow to this tank in the absence of corals and there subsequent flow needs low/medium/high will reduce cyano bacteria growth concerns significantly
Non reef safe fish can also be added to a tank like this and maintenance will be limited to water changes and filter/skimmer cleanings and top offs. Nitrates for a tank like this would be fine 40 or under. These are the type of tanks commonly seen in restaurants and dentist offices due to the fact that they are usually only serviced on a once a week basis and can be medicated should the need arise. In the absence of inverts a tank like this can also be maintained at a slightly lower SG which will save money as far as buying salt mixes for water changes and ordinary salt mixes can be used rather than the more expensive reef tank mixes. IE regular old Instant ocean.
Tanks like these can still make for stunning displays and for the novice viewer of the tank will actually be of more interest. I cant tell you how many times I have heard the novice viewer of a crammed reef/invert display say "wheres all the fish?."

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[gnorman]

thanks for the advice
we have so much money put into this tank i think im just going to keep all of what i have and try to fix the problem that way. i would hate to see not only the fish go but also the LR go. anyways, i did a year of research and everyone i talked to or anything i read about - it always said... LR is the way to go, and now im hearing otherwise....

 

[murph]

Originally Posted by GNorman
thanks for the advice
we have so much money put into this tank i think im just going to keep all of what i have and try to fix the problem that way. i would hate to see not only the fish go but also the LR go. anyways, i did a year of research and everyone i talked to or anything i read about - it always said... LR is the way to go, and now im hearing otherwise....
There are definitely many benefits to having LR. Certainly not bad advice to have it. But considering your situation and the changing caretakers of the tank the simplest rout would be a FO tank. Hopefully I did not discourage you.
The other thing to do here is remove the fish from your main tank and leave it fallow for six weeks and you can leave the tank otherwise unchanged. The complicated thing is what to do with those fish. I would take them back to the LFS that sold you the parasites/fish and demand some store credit in return.
During your main tanks fallow period you can get a QT well established and quarantine and or treat the fish you intend to add to the tank after all of this is resolved.
Either way you will have to move some live rock around and the process is not going to be labour free.
The other alternative is to just leave the fish in the tank and hope for the best as far as there ability to fend off this parasite on there own. My guess is eventually all fish will succumb to the parasite but dead fish are far easier to remove from a tank than live ones and then you can start your fallow period.

 

[gnorman]

Either way you will have to move some live rock around and the process is not going to be labour free.
haha yes i know, catching fish is no easy task. anyways, thanks for all of your help and advice, but this whole situation is driving me insane. i guess its just apart of the hobby

 

[murph]

You can take heart in the fact that your not alone. There is a pretty high attrition rate in this hobby. I see people invest large sums of money in tanks and I would say at least half are out of the hobby within a year or two and these pain in the a** parasites are usually a factor. I know of a huge bow front tank siting empty and used right now that someone must have invested five grand plus and that's a conservative estimate. It probably would take three guys on step ladders to remove the fish and rock from this system. From the looks of it the tank could not have been more than a year old.
The owner insist on selling as a package and the odds of him ever doing so are quite low. Try to think of that when you start to feel frustrated or get that feeling of buyers remorse.
This is the reason I usually go against the normal advice these days which includes large sums of money for just the rock and try encourage new comers to start out as simply and cheaply as possible with fish only tanks like I described. This gives them a chance to grow into the hobby as experience builds and if interest wanes or frustration sets in and they decide its not right for them the loss of there initial investment wont be such a large and bitter pill to swallow and at some point they may return with a fresh out look on things.
The feeling I get is you have a limited amount of time to devote to the tank and there will be various caretakers of this tank with various levels of interest. Hence the advice to keep things simple as possible and turn the tank to fish only. There is certainly no shame in this.
There is a private market, especially for your rock and light fixture, and you could easily see a large percentage of your investment returned to you if you decide to go the fish only route. Fish seem to be your main focus of interest any ways. Once again good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[gnorman]

thank you so much for taking your time to help me and steer me in the right direction through this