Whats the big deal???

clayton

Member
I having been hearing lots about living rock and sand filtration systems. These are not used in the U.K to my knowledge, I would be interested if someone could let me know the benifits of these systems.
As I understand it the theory goes like this:
Living sand systems consist of a mixture of argonite (what exactly is this) and normal coral sand. Small organisms such as copepods bacteria and worms colonise in the substrate in huge numbers. They consume the detritus and ammonia in the water. Presumably it is only the Nitrosomanas that consume ammonia? The copepods etc. consume detritus that would otherwise dissolve into ammonia, but won't these animals also produce nitrogenous waste? Is it true that you can buy this sand already full of live animals?
Another benifit is that as the main movement of solutions through the sand is via diffusion which results in anaerobic and hence acidic conditions and therefore aids the release of calcium into the water.
I can see how all this will work but dont you still need Nitrosomanas and Nitrobacter to perform the nitrogen cycle?
My tank has a 1 1/2 to 2 inch layer of crushed coral gravel and coral sand. The substrate contains masive numbers of copepods and other small crustaceans and worms as well as many smaller organisms that I cannot see. Would this constitute a 'living sand' filter?
The living rock system is simply a massive ammount of living rock that contains animals which do the same thing as those that you would find in the sand? What organisms is it on the rock that you consider to clean the water in the tank?
Any information on this would be great!
Thanks - from an old fashioned filter builder.
 

clayton

Member

Originally posted by Reef Ranger:
You make a great point, but I believe you are a little confused on what exactly a sand/rock only filter is. when you want to do only live sand, with rock you must leave a space under the sand for anareobic organisms to produce, ultimately these organisms are the consumers of nitrates, keeping the cycle in your tank running w/ideally no trate probs.
I personally run both live rock and sand with a large skimmer to keep my system in balance. all of the excess wastes and extra food not consumed is skimmed out of the system.
-Ranger-
I hope this helps, but this subject is quite complicated.

Fire away on the complicated bits if you will Reef Ranger! I am a marine biologist and have been keeping fish off and on for 20 years - complicated bits get me excited!
I know about the anaerobic space underneath the substrate and it's uses. What I am unsure about is the effectiveness of this system. It makes sense that the small organisms (ie copepods)in the substrate feed on detritus. This detritus would dissolve into nitrogenous waste if it was not consumed. Great stuff! However dont these organisms also produce nitrogenous waste in the same way as fish and other inverts even if it is less than would have been produced had the detritus been left to dissolve? In this case you are still going to need Nitrosomenas and Nitrobacter to transform this waste into Nitrate. You are naturaly going to get the nitrogen cycle occuring via bacteria that live on the aquarium rocks etc. I can't see how the system works without some aerobic bacteria.
The anaerobic space under the gravel sounds like it would work great for Nitrates and also for helping release calcium. But what provisions are there for aerobic bacteria? Is the idea that the copepods etc, consume so much of the detritus that there is little left to convert into nitrogenous waste? What about the ammonia produced directly from the fish? Is there another organism apart from the bacteria that are present to consume this?
What is done to prevent the possibility of sulphates building up? Wouldnt agitating the substrate lower the anaerobic level of the space under the substrate?
What are the organisms exactly used in the substrate (aerobic)?
If the anaerobic space under the gravel is utilising bacteria for denitrification, dont you first need to produce the nitrite?
Without the anaerobic space would this system convert all waste to nitrate without the need for the usual biological filtration?
I can see how this system could work very well in conjunction with the usual biological filtration or in systems with very low biological loads and I am all for it, as it represents a step closer to obtaining a balanced mini ecosystem. However can this system maintain zero levels of nitrie and ammonia in heavily stocked systems?
Finaly whats the deal with the living rock? As I know it, living rock is pieces of rock that have been left in the sea (or cultivated) to let many of the organisms that you would find on the reefs colonise. Is living rock considered to be able to clean the aquarium water??? If this is so then what organisms are thought to do this job?
Finaly finaly, what is the point of 'curing' living rock in dark conditions? You may lose some organisms that you do not want but you would also lose many of those that are wanted. It seems a bit counterproductive to me.
Anyway, as I said before we are a little behind here in the U.K so all comments are great!
 

drillbit

New Member
The one question you still didnt answer that I really want to know is why we're supposed to cure live rock in the dark. I agree, seems like your killing off the exact organisms you want to keep.
 

halide

Member
The reason you cure live rock in the dark is while curing new live rock you will have alot of die off which adds alot of nutrients to your water so any light during this process will give you massive algae blooms(hair algae)which will choke out any life starting out anyways,also you will be amazed just how much survives doing it with the lights off more so if the lights were left on unless you want to do at least 5 to 10% water change every day to keep nutrients low enough that you wouldnt have a algae bloom.
 

kmr

Member
Clayton - I saw your tank on your web site. Is that your reef tank or predater tank? I am suprised you feel behind in the times being a marine biologist and all. I thought you guys over there were more advanced on this topic. I personally prefer the Berlin method for the care of my reef. I know too much mechanical filtration is a algea bloom waiting to happen. Also you are asking for a ammonia problem too. In this hobby, and as you should know more about, as much replication of nature is desirable.
 

krazzydart

Member
wow....wow....wow....wow.......... neat stuff I say to each there own...... and whatever makes your boat float... Mother nature takes care of her own
 

clayton

Member

Originally posted by KMR:
Clayton - I saw your tank on your web site. Is that your reef tank or predater tank? I am suprised you feel behind in the times being a marine biologist and all. I thought you guys over there were more advanced on this topic. I personally prefer the Berlin method for the care of my reef. I know too much mechanical filtration is a algea bloom waiting to happen. Also you are asking for a ammonia problem too. In this hobby, and as you should know more about, as much replication of nature is desirable.

I think there must be another Clayton lurking around!! I have not posted any pictures of my tank on the web! I think this could be the reason behind some rather confusing messages I have been getting about things I have supposed to have said.
Hey Eric! Maybe it wasnt me!!!
 

clayton

Member

Originally posted by Halide:
The reason you cure live rock in the dark is while curing new live rock you will have alot of die off which adds alot of nutrients to your water so any light during this process will give you massive algae blooms(hair algae)which will choke out any life starting out anyways,also you will be amazed just how much survives doing it with the lights off more so if the lights were left on unless you want to do at least 5 to 10% water change every day to keep nutrients low enough that you wouldnt have a algae bloom.

Good answer!!
 

clayton

Member

Originally posted by clayton:
I think there must be another Clayton lurking around!! I have not posted any pictures of my tank on the web! I think this could be the reason behind some rather confusing messages I have been getting about things I have supposed to have said.
Hey Eric! Maybe it wasnt me!!!

PS could you tell me the site I can find 'my' tank? It better be a cool one!!
 

kmr

Member
Aplogies to Clayton!!!
I confused you with DennisH. I am not normally quick to anger or frustation but have been working with the National Fisheries Dept. on the Makah whale hunt. There has been much heated debate as to the migration status of the grey whale along our coast. My temper was short towards some marine biologists that were more concerned about lining their pockets than anything else. I shouldn't have been gruff towards you. I just don't think it's right to ask for replies only from certain people on a message board open everybody. Really great info can be found in places overlooked with that mentallity. Once again I aplogize to you and I'm sure your tank(s) are really cool.
 

clayton

Member

Originally posted by KMR:
Aplogies to Clayton!!!
I confused you with DennisH. I am not normally quick to anger or frustation but have been working with the National Fisheries Dept. on the Makah whale hunt. There has been much heated debate as to the migration status of the grey whale along our coast. My temper was short towards some marine biologists that were more concerned about lining their pockets than anything else. I shouldn't have been gruff towards you. I just don't think it's right to ask for replies only from certain people on a message board open everybody. Really great info can be found in places overlooked with that mentallity. Once again I aplogize to you and I'm sure your tank(s) are really cool.

No problem KMR, I agree, if people are doing marine biology and particulaly conservation for the money - they are in it for the wrong reasons. All the Marine conservation organisations that I have worked for rarely offer more than food and accomodation even for very highly qualified individuals, but I would not stop for the world. I would be interested in whats up with the Grey whales, keep up the good work KMR - we need more people like you!
 

kmr

Member
I know this is not reef related but important. You can keep up with the Makah whale hunt at WWW.STOPWHALEKILL.ORG, the marine biologists I was talking about were hired by the Makahs PR co. They have quite abit of ourr tax dollars to throw around.
 
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