When you say you're afraid of "the government", who exactly are you afraid of?

darthtang aw

Active Member
I was looking more at the teflon coated coated bullet aspect....lol.
And the increase of man power needed for the ATF just to handle the background check calls if I want to by 20 rounds of 9mm....
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
How to prevent the people from killing each other while the government tears them apart? That should be the question.
I'm afraid of the fact that I'm not very old but I can still remember a day when folks who grew up in middle class neighborhoods didn't always lock their front doors at night for fear of being robbed or having some crazy person walk up in their house.
These days I'm afraid of accidentally driving 3 mph over the speed limit, making a rolling stop when I can clearly see for half a block that no cars are coming my way. Miss judging a yellow light and being caught by the cameras. Or being fined for accidentally saying a sear word in public.
It's laughable now but it won't be long before the internet is being policed (if not already). Some folks out there would have our freadom of speech online taken away.
The fear is not of losing a recreational toy or sporting tool. I'm afraid that over the course of my lifetime I've seen more freedom's or right's taken away from this nations citizens than actual securities that have been provided.
 

crimzy

Active Member
Some of you talk as if the citizens of this country are already at war with the government. Seriously, "what will they take away next?". Comparing or implying that if there are any gun restrictions then internment camps aren't far behind. I don't know if it's a paranoid psychosis or just sour grapes because the good old boy lost in November but some people here just need to stop with this martyr/hero complex.
Sorry guys but no one is trying to oppress you. The fact is that we just had a tragedy so grotesque that it leaves almost everyone trying to figure out what we can do to prevent anything like that from happening again. Some ideas are going to be too far right, and some too far left because everyone seems to have an opinion.
To answer the question posed in the OP, people are afraid of having freedoms further restricted... That's it. As dramatic a case as you want to propose, I don't really think anyone on here is or will be truly oppressed. If you do, then go talk to a black person who grew up in the 50's (or anytime prior) or a Jew from the 30's or 40's. They could teach you a thing or two about oppression.
What we have here is a bunch of whiners who act like my 6 year old when I take away her itouch for a day. People don't like restrictions on "freedoms" and will fight for purely selfish reasons. Here's a news flash all... Unless you're making your way to your own deserted island, there is no absolute freedom. The constitution provides for some amount of freedoms, which are all subject to limitation and constantly changing.
In short, you are not oppressed, you are just spoiled.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///t/394081/when-you-say-youre-afraid-of-the-government-who-exactly-are-you-afraid-of/20#post_3507547
Some of you talk as if the citizens of this country are already at war with the government. Seriously, "what will they take away next?". Comparing or implying that if there are any gun restrictions then internment camps aren't far behind. I don't know if it's a paranoid psychosis or just sour grapes because the good old boy lost in November but some people here just need to stop with this martyr/hero complex.
Sorry guys but no one is trying to oppress you. The fact is that we just had a tragedy so grotesque that it leaves almost everyone trying to figure out what we can do to prevent anything like that from happening again. Some ideas are going to be too far right, and some too far left because everyone seems to have an opinion.
To answer the question posed in the OP, people are afraid of having freedoms further restricted... That's it. As dramatic a case as you want to propose, I don't really think anyone on here is or will be truly oppressed. If you do, then go talk to a black person who grew up in the 50's (or anytime prior) or a Jew from the 30's or 40's. They could teach you a thing or two about oppression.
What we have here is a bunch of whiners who act like my 6 year old when I take away her itouch for a day. People don't like restrictions on "freedoms" and will fight for purely selfish reasons. Here's a news flash all... Unless you're making your way to your own deserted island, there is no absolute freedom. The constitution provides for some amount of freedoms, which are all subject to limitation and constantly changing.
In short, you are not oppressed, you are just spoiled.
Putting words into other peoples mouths again are we?
Who's implying that anyone here is at actual war with our government? Do you seriously think that this gun ban all came about simply because of last years events? Open your eyes. No one is arguing the idea of trying to save innocent life from being taken. Some of us are just concerned about our officials choices on what they think is most important for our nation regardless of who else it's going to hurt and how. With very little positive data to go on, this weapons ban will serve no other purpose than a waste of time and money on the part of our leaders.
Enjoy that pistol while you have it, Crimzy. Cause some folks are talking about banning all semi-auto's as well.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Some of you talk as if the citizens of this country are already at war with the government. Seriously, "what will they take away next?". Comparing or implying that if there are any gun restrictions then internment camps aren't far behind. I don't know if it's a paranoid psychosis or just sour grapes because the good old boy lost in November but some people here just need to stop with this martyr/hero complex.
Sorry guys but no one is trying to oppress you. The fact is that we just had a tragedy so grotesque that it leaves almost everyone trying to figure out what we can do to prevent anything like that from happening again. Some ideas are going to be too far right, and some too far left because everyone seems to have an opinion.
To answer the question posed in the OP, people are afraid of having freedoms further restricted... That's it. As dramatic a case as you want to propose, I don't really think anyone on here is or will be truly oppressed. If you do, then go talk to a black person who grew up in the 50's (or anytime prior) or a Jew from the 30's or 40's. They could teach you a thing or two about oppression.
What we have here is a bunch of whiners who act like my 6 year old when I take away her itouch for a day. People don't like restrictions on "freedoms" and will fight for purely selfish reasons. Here's a news flash all... Unless you're making your way to your own deserted island, there is no absolute freedom. The constitution provides for some amount of freedoms, which are all subject to limitation and constantly changing.
In short, you are not oppressed, you are just spoiled.
The difference is you gave and purchased the itouch for your child. I under stand the constitution is limiting...as it should be. The freedoms designated within the constitution have been circumvented in many ways without legal constitutional amendments or laws written by house and senate with approval from both. Banning any gun by executive order is outside the confines of the executive power branch...With each new administration we see the checks and balances put in place for this country circumvented more and more. This is what is frightening. What if we skipped trials and just went to verdicts handed down by a judge in every criminal and civil case? This is the direction our government has taken.
 

reefraff

Active Member
There's an old story about frogs in hot water. If you throw a frog in a pan of boiling water it will jump out. But if you put it in a pan of water and slowly bring it to a boil it will happily sit there and allow itself to be cooked. That is where many people are. They don't see what's been shoved down our throats for the last 25 years or so.
Anyone who thinks the anti gun crowd is going to stop at so called assault weapons is blind. It's just step one.
And it isn't about being at war with the government. It's about exposing politicians with a lust for power that's ruining this country.
 

crimzy

Active Member
Guys, I don't disagree with most of what you said. But take a look at the comments made throughout this thread. The OP is asking what people are afraid of, and the responses are nothing short of paranoid... suspending the Bill of Rights, oppression, battles with police, military, ATF, FBI, etc.
And let's just call it what it is... you all are not arguiing for principles such as the constitution, freedom, morality or anything like this. You just don't want someone telling you that you have to give something up. Not quite as virtuous as you would suggest.
 

reefraff

Active Member

This isn't like saying you have to have insurance to drive. Driving is a privilege which can be taxed or regulated by the government. Gun ownership is a right spelled out in the constitution. If we open the door to this where will it stop? If the anti gunners think Semi Auto rifles should be banned lets do it the right way, a constitutional amendment to modify the second amendment. If that happens I'll give mine up willingly. I am just sick and tire of people yawning when the government pulls crap they don't have the authority to do.
It isn't paranoia, it's history.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
This isnt paranoia about having our toys taken away (at least not for me). It's about what this ban and everything that comes along with it represents. We seem to be heading down a road where I dont want to go. It's one more piece of the pie which we call choice thats being taken away from us.
If we left it up to the states to decide like it should be then that's fine. People have the choice to live in that state or not.
Spoiled we may be. And I wont argue that. But that's a huge part of what makes this country great. Its freedom of choice. And im not about to dishonor the blood of all who gave thier lives for this country so that we can have that freedom in the first place.
 

zman1

Active Member
What's next to be trampled on? The 4th Amendment? Warrantless Wiretaps - Sure it's for saftey and only to be used for ..... That's how the Frog starts out in cold water.....
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Guys, I don't disagree with most of what you said.  But take a look at the comments made throughout this thread.  The OP is asking what people are afraid of, and the responses are nothing short of paranoid... suspending the Bill of Rights, oppression, battles with police, military, ATF, FBI, etc. 
And let's just call it what it is... you all are not arguiing for principles such as the constitution, freedom, morality or anything like this.  You just don't want someone telling you that you have to give something up.  Not quite as virtuous as you would suggest.
When the current President authorizes the use of assassination on American citizens instead of apprehension and trial...Yeah, we should all have concern. It isnt paranoia when you have these types of words coming from the head honcho....
 

crimzy

Active Member
Jeez... even Wikipedia sees the error in your respective positions...
Fallacy
The heart of the slippery slope fallacy lies in abusing the intuitively appreciable transitivity of implication, claiming that A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D and so on, until one finally claims that A leads to Z. While this is formally valid when the premises are taken as a given, each of those contingencies needs to be factually established before the relevant conclusion can be drawn. Slippery slope fallacies occur when this is not done—an argument that supports the relevant premises is not fallacious and thus isn't a slippery slope fallacy.Often proponents of a "slippery slope" contention propose a long series of intermediate events as the mechanism of connection leading from A to B. The "camel's nose" provides one example of this: once a camel has managed to place its nose within a tent, the rest of the camel will inevitably follow. In this sense the slippery slope resembles the genetic fallacy, but in reverse.As an example of how an appealing slippery slope argument can be unsound, suppose that whenever a tree falls down, it has a 95% chance of knocking over another tree. We might conclude that soon, a great number of trees would fall; however this is not the case. There is a 5% chance that no more trees will fall, a 4.75% chance that exactly one more tree will fall (and thus a 9.75% chance of 1 or fewer additional trees falling), and so on. There is a 92.3% chance that 50 or fewer additional trees will fall. The expected value of trees that will fall is 20. In the absence of some momentum factor that makes later trees more likely to fall than earlier ones, this "domino effect" approaches zero probability.This form of argument often provides evaluative judgments on social change: once an exception is made to some rule, nothing will hold back further, more egregious exceptions to that rule.Note that these arguments may indeed havevalidity, but they require some independent justification of the connection between their terms: otherwise the argument (as a logical tool) remains fallacious.The "slippery slope" approach may also relate to the conjunction fallacy: with a long string of steps leading to an undesirable conclusion, the chance of all the steps actually occurring in sequence is less than the chance of any one of the individual steps occurring alone.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
If you want to look at facts then look at facts. The only time violent crime goes down is when people do not feel oppressed or desperate. Take the desperation out of the nation and you will save some lives. Why waste time and money on "slippery slope" notions like limiting access to assault rifles now? Kids were still getting killed with AK's and handguns back when the ban was on. If you're going to do something then "do it"! If you want to limit gun crime then go out and take the guns away from the people. How is our government going to be able to protect us if we can't afford it? We just keep spending time and money that we don't really have on stuff like this when our main focus should be putting people to work so that they can afford to take care of themselves. And let the government worry about keeping it that way and protecting our interests abroad.
 

crimzy

Active Member
Hmmmm...
The president murders American citizens? Boiling frogs? A limitation on any amendment is "trampling" on the constitution? And 2Quills, I have NO IDEA what your diatribe means, especially in the context of this discussion.
Y'all are so cute...
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Jeez... even Wikipedia sees the error in your respective positions...
Fallacy
The heart of the slippery slope fallacy lies in abusing the intuitively appreciable transitivity of implication, claiming that A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D and so on, until one finally claims that A leads to Z. While this is formally valid when the premises are taken as a given, each of those contingencies needs to be factually established before the relevant conclusion can be drawn. Slippery slope fallacies occur when this is not done—an argument that supports the relevant premises is not fallacious and thus isn't a slippery slope fallacy.Often proponents of a "slippery slope" contention propose a long series of intermediate events as the mechanism of connection leading from A to B. The "camel's nose" provides one example of this: once a camel has managed to place its nose within a tent, the rest of the camel will inevitably follow. In this sense the slippery slope resembles the genetic fallacy, but in reverse.As an example of how an appealing slippery slope argument can be unsound, suppose that whenever a tree falls down, it has a 95% chance of knocking over another tree. We might conclude that soon, a great number of trees would fall; however this is not the case. There is a 5% chance that no more trees will fall, a 4.75% chance that exactly one more tree will fall (and thus a 9.75% chance of 1 or fewer additional trees falling), and so on. There is a 92.3% chance that 50 or fewer additional trees will fall. The expected value of trees that will fall is 20. In the absence of some momentum factor that makes later trees more likely to fall than earlier ones, this "domino effect" approaches zero probability.This form of argument often provides evaluative judgments on social change: once an exception is made to some rule, nothing will hold back further, more egregious exceptions to that rule.Note that these arguments may indeed havevalidity, but they require some independent justification of the connection between their terms: otherwise the argument (as a logical tool) remains fallacious.The "slippery slope" approach may also relate to the conjunction fallacy: with a long string of steps leading to an undesirable conclusion, the chance of all the steps actually occurring in sequence is less than the chance of any one of the individual steps occurring alone.
This might apply as a semi solid defense against the argument however ideas are not tangible items or object such as which are used as examples in this counterpoint. Ideas naturally grow. The next step is the implementation of these ideas.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

reefraff

Active Member
I remember when liberals wanted the government to stay out of their lives and didn't expect handouts and didn't want to shove their lifestyle down other people's throats. That was why I identified as a Democrat in my younger years. Boy how the times have changed.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
"As the president said, if your actions result in only saving one life, they're worth taking," Vice President Joe Biden declared on Wednesday as he previewed what his commission on gun violence might actually do.
"There are executive orders, there's executive action that can be taken. We haven't decided what that is yet. But we're compiling it all with the help of the attorney general and the rest of the Cabinet members as well as legislative action that we believe is required."
Biden insisted that it is a moral imperative for the White House to do something: "It's critically important that we act."
Most of the attention, understandably, is on Biden's suggestion that the president will consider using executive orders to do things he couldn't possibly accomplish legislatively. The imperial presidency is always troubling, but when it rubs up against the Bill of Rights it is especially so.
But what I find to be arguably the most disturbing -- and definitely the most annoying -- part of Biden's remarks is this nonsense about if it saves only one life, the White House's actions would be worth it.
Maybe it's because I wrote a whole book on the way phrases like "if it saves only one life, it's worth it" distort our politics, but whenever I hear such things the hairs on the back of my neck go up.
The notion that any government action is justified if saves even a single life is malarkey, to borrow one of Mr. Biden's favorite terms. Worse than that, it's dangerous malarkey.
Let's start with the malarkey part. The federal government could ban cars, fatty foods, ladders, plastic buckets, window blinds or Lego pieces small enough to choke on and save far more than just one life. Is it imperative the government do any of that? It's a tragedy when people die in car accidents (roughly 35,000 fatalities per year), or when kids drown in plastic buckets (it happens an estimated 10 to 40 times a year), or when people die falling off ladders (about 300 per year). Would a law that prevents those deaths be worth it, no matter the cost?
Now one obvious response to this sort of argument ad absurdum is to say, "We don't have to ban buckets or cars to reduce the number of deaths. We can simply regulate them." And that's true.
Indeed, that's the point. But when we regulate things, we take into account things other than the singular consideration about saving lives. Banning cars would cost the economy trillions -- and also probably cost lives in various unintended ways. So we regulate them with speed limits, seat belt requirements, etc. And even here we accept a certain number of preventable deaths every year. Regulators don't set the speed limit at five miles per hour, nor do they make highway guardrails 50 feet high.
Every serious student of public policy -- starting with Joe Biden and Barack Obama -- knows this to be true. Some just choose to pretend as if it isn't true in order to push through their preferred policies.
The idea that the government can regulate or ban its way into a world where there are no tragedies, no premature deaths, is quite simply ridiculous. But that is precisely the assumption behind phrases like "if only one life is saved, it's worth it."
Which brings us to the dangerous part. Pay attention to what Biden is saying. The important thing is for government to act, not for the government to act wisely.
And that's the real problem with this kind of rhetoric. Not only does it establish a ridiculously low standard for what justifies government action -- indeed, action itself becomes its own justification -- but it also sets the expectation that the government is there to prevent bad things from happening.
Biden has a warrant to investigate the role not just of gun laws but also video games, movies, mental health policies and lord knows what else in order to make sure we don't have another Newtown or Aurora massacre. I am wholly sympathetic to the desire to prevent such a thing from ever happening again.
But for starters, I would first like to hear exactly what Biden would have us do, with regard to the First, Second and Fifth Amendments, before I think action is self-justifying on the grounds that if it saves even one life, it's worth it.
http://townhall.com/columnists/jonahgoldberg/2013/01/11/bidens-faulty-lifeguard-logic-n1486731/page/full/
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
You know how rediculoius that sounds? If you're going to do something then do it. Why half ass it? Go out there and take the guns away from the people.
All this legislation has done so far is put more guns in the hands of a bunch of would be gun owners.
Congradulations, you're already in the fail zone. Good job Mr. President!
 
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