While the nation was watching football.........

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3178020
I see that you are of the view as is Obama and the political elitist that Americans are bad ,incompetent and need government to watch over them. BTW Swine Flu isnt a big deal ,the government would have you believe it is the bubonic plague though.

I think that view stems from people having political conversations/arguments with people who don't know what they're talking about and are too stupid to understand what is being told to them or too stupid to admit they're wrong when a valid argument is made. NEWSFLASH, go ask random Americans on the street how they feel about the current administration, then when they tell you, ask them to elaborate...most won't have any substance to validate their memorized talking points from FOX Noise or their other favorties "infotainment". If people want to be involved in politics and make a difference, they need to know what they stand for and why. They need to be able to back arguments up with fact! Most americans need to broaden their views and hear all there is to be said on all sides.
Random Example of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKKg...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28SFDmGEMm8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah9vGWqpSXg
Someone commented about that first video and I think he makes a good point:
"It really is scary to think that these people are allowed to vote. Granted, I probably couldn’t have listed off every single policy issue that Obama had campaigned on when he was running for office, but there were several that I agreed with such as his current attempt to reform health care, closing down Guantanamo, and ending the war in Iraq. I can manage to list off several policy issues and not just spout cliched platitudes to explain my reasons for voting for Obama. It’s questionable whether or not you can find anyone in the Sarah Palin camp who could do the same."
I'm using Palin as a random example, but it applies to all political issues out there right now. People argue for or against w/o knowing what they're talking about.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3178027
Actually, a basic principle of "liberal academia" (as opposed to ignorant academia?) is that a good argument doesn't have to be a long argument! Q.E.D. works.
I have no problem with those of you who see requiring insurance as governmental interference in your lives or a violation of the constitution, but generally you won't take the responsibility that comes with not being insured. Sure, if you drive without a license and you happen to get caught you will pay a fine: after all, the fine will be less than paying for a license and insurance. But what happens if you are seriously ill and require expensive medical care and are uninsured. A few of you might be able to pay, but the majority of you would just throw yourselves on the mercy of the hospital/government, so the rest of us end up paying anyway. How about this: no fines for not being insured, but no access to any medical care without paying cash at the door. That's the alternative. While oscardeuce and I disagree on many things, we both agree that he should be paid when he renders medical care, and all of the discussions on this thread are really about how to accomplish that simple idea.
My biggest gripe here Geri is that Universal Health Care is out of the Federal Governments scope of responsibilities. There is no provision in the Constitution that provides the Federal Government with this authority.However im not opposed to the individual states taking on the task for themselves.That is the way our Republic was set up ,the Federal Government has very limited authority for very specific reasons.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3178038
I think that view stems from people having political conversations/arguments with people who don't know what they're talking about and are too stupid to understand what is being told to them or too stupid to admit they're wrong when a valid argument is made. NEWSFLASH, go ask random americans on the street how they feel about the current administration, then when they tell you, ask them to elaborate...most won't have any substance to validate their memorized talking points from FOX Noise.
Random Example of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKKg...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28SFDmGEMm8
Why would i need to go ask random Americans their opinion for?I can form my own opinions.I dont form opinions on the whims of others regardless of weather its popular or not.
BTW thanx for your random original thoughts via UTUBE.
 

stevedave08

Member
A good friend of mine put it pretty well the other day during a similar conversation:
"My friend this is nothing more than politics. A downside to our system is that if you play for the other team you are always wrong. People have just never realized that being a Republican or a Democrat is not as simple as cheering for the Jets or the Dolphins, but that is just the way it is.
This Country is going through the worst economic crisis in over 30 years and it is only going to get worse when the commercial real estate market crashes. I do not care who the ---- is in the White House and who has to make deals with who, just fix the economy, get us out of Iraq, take care of Afghanistan, and fix health care without bankrupting the Country. Remember the reason why the Soviet Union fell apart was not because they did not believe in God, as some Republicans say, but because they went bankrupt!"
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3178046
A good friend of mine put it pretty well the other day during a similar conversation:
"My friend this is nothing more than politics. A downside to our system is that if you play for the other team you are always wrong. People have just never realized that being a Republican or a Democrat is not as simple as cheering for the Jets or the Dolphins, but that is just the way it is.
This Country is going through the worst economic crisis in over 30 years and it is only going to get worse when the commercial real estate market crashes. I do not care who the ---- is in the White House and who has to make deals with who, just fix the economy, get us out of Iraq, take care of Afghanistan, and fix health care without bankrupting the Country. Remember the reason why the Soviet Union fell apart was not because they did not believe in God, as some Republicans say, but because they went bankrupt!"
I can agree with a lot of this.Im all for a great big enema flush out of all the dirt bag politicians that reside in Washington.
 

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3178049
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19v5Kjmc8FI
LOL, I clearly said that there are people on all sides of debate that speak with no substance to back their claims. While these (the people in the link you provided) are obviously misinformed, ignorant people who think they're getting money from Obama just because they're black, they're wrong of course and are not at rallies complaining about not having gotten that money. They don't seem very interested in politics as they seem interested in a handout of money. I think it's pretty stupid to say that you voted for Barack Obama because since he's black and you're black, he's going to give you money.
The people at rallies, protests, etc who don't know what the hell they are talking about are the ones that bother me.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3178041
My biggest gripe here Geri is that Universal Health Care is out of the Federal Governments scope of responsibilities. There is no provision in the Constitution that provides the Federal Government with this authority.However im not opposed to the individual states taking on the task for themselves.That is the way our Republic was set up ,the Federal Government has very limited authority for very specific reasons.
The states don't want to have anything to with any of the healthcare reform either. Kay Bailey Hutchinson is running for Texas Governor. She's been blasted for spending so much time campaigning for Governor, and sherking her duties in the Senate. So now she has this ad running where she's saying she's staying in her Senate seat until this health reform issue is resolved. Her statement goes, "I will not leave office until this healthcare reform issue is resolved. I will not allow a goverment public option health plan. Not at the Federal level, THE STATE LEVEL, or any level as long as I'm a senator for Texas". Of course not, she wants to keep lining her pockets with the kickbacks from the medical insurance and healthcare providers.
Vici, you want to go strictly by every written line in the Constitution. You refuse to waver and 'go outside the box' when it comes to legal precedent on political issues. The Constitution was meant to be 'guidelines', sort of an 'outline' to the overall story. The Framers never intended for the American people to just stick to the Bill of Rights, and say, "These rights are written in stone. They forever will not be touched or altered." That's why there are Amendments to the Constitution. You say healthcare is out of the scope of the Federal Government. Why? Because private industry is doing such a great job with it? Believe me, if the medical industry had an unbiased and fair way to treat any individual in this country when they required medical attention, without that individual having to become destitute doing it, the Federal Government would have no interest in reforming healthcare. That's why they are getting involved. The American people have been screaming for decades that they're tired of spending 20% of their disposable income just to have a healthy lifestyle. The medical industry just looks at them and says, "Tough. We make the decisions on what we can charge you. Whatcha gonna do about it? Don't like my prices? Too bad. Either accept them or move out of the country." Well the Federal Government doesn't want the American people to accept them anymore. So they are going to provide an alternative.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3178168
The states don't want to have anything to with any of the healthcare reform either. Kay Bailey Hutchinson is running for Texas Governor. She's been blasted for spending so much time campaigning for Governor, and sherking her duties in the Senate. So now she has this ad running where she's saying she's staying in her Senate seat until this health reform issue is resolved. Her statement goes, "I will not leave office until this healthcare reform issue is resolved. I will not allow a goverment public option health plan. Not at the Federal level, THE STATE LEVEL, or any level as long as I'm a senator for Texas". Of course not, she wants to keep lining her pockets with the kickbacks from the medical insurance and healthcare providers.
Vici, you want to go strictly by every written line in the Constitution. You refuse to waver and 'go outside the box' when it comes to legal precedent on political issues. The Constitution was meant to be 'guidelines', sort of an 'outline' to the overall story. The Framers never intended for the American people to just stick to the Bill of Rights, and say, "These rights are written in stone. They forever will not be touched or altered." That's why there are Amendments to the Constitution. You say healthcare is out of the scope of the Federal Government. Why? Because private industry is doing such a great job with it? Believe me, if the medical industry had an unbiased and fair way to treat any individual in this country when they required medical attention, without that individual having to become destitute doing it, the Federal Government would have no interest in reforming healthcare. That's why they are getting involved. The American people have been screaming for decades that they're tired of spending 20% of their disposable income just to have a healthy lifestyle. The medical industry just looks at them and says, "Tough. We make the decisions on what we can charge you. Whatcha gonna do about it? Don't like my prices? Too bad. Either accept them or move out of the country." Well the Federal Government doesn't want the American people to accept them anymore. So they are going to provide an alternative.
Yes!! The Bill of Rights are written in stone.The Bill of Rights in essence is a declaration of GOD GIVEN RIGHTS or Natural Right of Man, equality,liberty.......... Look up: George Mason
Again the Federal Government has no authority to mandate health insurance,nor does it have the authority to provide it.This is a issue for the States to decide on there own.
Now if a majority of the people want to change this ,there is provisions in the US Constitution to change it.Until the Constitution is ratified then i guess you and the minority are S.O.L.
And NO the Constitution is not a living document.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3178168
Of course not, she wants to keep lining her pockets with the kickbacks from the medical insurance and healthcare providers.

If you think the senators and congressmen that support the healthcare bill are not lining their own pockets from the same industry you are a fool. And you are an even bigger fool if you believe the same pocket lining will not continue after the bill either.
Gee...lets mandate everyone has to have healthcare......Then we are going to have a bunch of private insurance companies form a pool. This is for people to go to if they don't like the non government related insurance option in it's current form.
So if private companies are now in this pool they now collect more money, since the law now states you have to have insurance.
While we are at it, we will cut some major medicare funding and thus dropping mny people.....these people inturn will hbe forced to go to the "evil" private insurances now since medicare will no longer cover what it was....
Tell me again how the health insurance industry is NOT making out in this.
If I am a health insurance CEO, I am pushing for this bill, as it forces people to buy my product if they do not like the public option....which won't take effect for many years anyway and will have a waiting period........means people have to buy from my industry.
This bill does nothing to help the people and just strengthens government and increases the "evil" profits of the healthcare industry....
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3177985
Its not my argument, its yours. I have stated i dont agree fining Americans for not having health insurance is constitutional .My comment about fining you for giving me a cold was me basically making fun of your scenario.
Fair enough. I have however, on numerous occaisions on this forum, come out against Government run health care and I maintain that position still.
There are better ways to solve the problem than our legislators have proposed.
Mandating health insurance is un-american and un -constitutional.
So is a standing army, the graduated income tax, the Federal Reserve, agricultural subsidies and a Federally maintained highway system (to cite just a few examples.) What's your point? Again, wanna be a strict Constitutionalist?
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3178272
Again, wanna be a strict Constitutionalist?
Yes.
The Constitution was never broken , politicians started tip toeing around it,now they just trample right over it and all of the principles in it.
This is a fact and i believe this to my core.The United States of America is the greatest nation to ever have been.The world has advanced leaps and bounds since it was founded,no other civilization rivals what the USA has meant to the world.
This is a direct result of our Founding Fathers and the document they authored that made the USA .
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3178277
Yes.
The Constitution was never broken
I don't disagree in large part, long as you include the first 10 changes to it in that statement. Times have also changed since it was written and I think that needs to be visited from time to time.
politicians started tip toeing around it,now they just trample right over it and all of the principles in it.
They have from day one and they will continue to do so. That's the definition of "politician."
This is a fact and i believe this to my core.The United States of America is the greatest nation to ever have been.The world has advanced leaps and bounds since it was founded,no other civilization rivals what the USA has meant to the world.
This is a direct result of our Founding Fathers and the document they authored that made the USA .
mmmm
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3178277
Yes.
The Constitution was never broken , politicians started tip toeing around it,now they just trample right over it and all of the principles in it.
This is a fact and i believe this to my core.The United States of America is the greatest nation to ever have been.The world has advanced leaps and bounds since it was founded,no other civilization rivals what the USA has meant to the world.
This is a direct result of our Founding Fathers and the document they authored that made the USA .
The Constitution is a historical document that essentially created what we know as a democratic society. It has been used as a foundation for the philosophies and beliefs of how this country has advanced though history. However, it's NOT the only factor for why the US has been one of the more dominating nations on this planet. There's a lot more to it than that. You give this document more credit than it's due. It's also ironic that this very same document has been the catalyst for some of the most trying and upheaval times in American history. It indirectly caused a Civil War, allowed different classes and races to be discrimated against, caused corruption in our voting system, and several other legal points. How was it rectified? Politician's had to start 'tip toeing around it', and added Amendments to that 'etched in stone' document you think is directly tied to religion. You can't continue to live in the past. You need to learn to look 'outside of the box'. It's the close-minded attitudes like yours that has divided the people in this nation. That's quite apparent by the difference in the political attitudes of the members of the insignificant fish forum. Multiply the difference in opinions of the people here by 200 MILLION, and I'm not amazed another Civil War hasn't already broken out again.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3178303
The Constitution is a historical document that essentially created what we know as a democratic society. It has been used as a foundation for the philosophies and beliefs of how this country has advanced though history. However, it's NOT the only factor for why the US has been one of the more dominating nations on this planet. There's a lot more to it than that. You give this document more credit than it's due. It's also ironic that this very same document has been the catalyst for some of the most trying and upheaval times in American history. It indirectly caused a Civil War, allowed different classes and races to be discrimated against, caused corruption in our voting system, and several other legal points. How was it rectified? Politician's had to start 'tip toeing around it', and added Amendments to that 'etched in stone' document you think is directly tied to religion. You can't continue to live in the past. You need to learn to look 'outside of the box'. It's the close-minded attitudes like yours that has divided the people in this nation. That's quite apparent by the difference in the political attitudes of the members of the insignificant fish forum. Multiply the difference in opinions of the people here by 200 MILLION, and I'm not amazed another Civil War hasn't already broken out again.
I dont think it is possible to disagree with a statement or a person more than i disagree with you and your thoughts and opinions.
People (Progressives)have screwed up this nation not the document.The Constitution did not cause the Civil War ...thats insane thinking and although the US Constitution is not a religious document you apparently have never read the history of the document or the people responsible for writing it.
I cant believe how much crap you just packed into you above statement.Its gotta be some sort of world record.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3178288
I don't disagree in large part, long as you include the first 10 changes to it in that statement. Times have also changed since it was written and I think that needs to be visited from time to time.
The Constitution lays out the groundwork for changes to it.If it needs to be tweaked the we need to do it in a responsible way according to the law of the land.We just cant ignore it and do as we like or we are going to have the kind of problems we have now.
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3178288
They have from day one and they will continue to do so. That's the definition of "politician."
I think of a different definition when i think of "politician"
Originally Posted by uneverno

http:///forum/post/3178288
mmmm
Im listening if you can name another.
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3178315
The Constitution lays out the groundwork for changes to it.If it needs to be tweaked the we need to do it in a responsible way according to the law of the land.We just cant ignore it and do as we like or we are going to have the kind of problems we have now.
I agree.
What I will say with regard to that though, is that we have already altered our government in ways the Constitution neither provides for nor allows, and we have frequently done so outside the Constitutionally mandated process. My question would be this: If the result is something you agree with, does that make sidestepping the process ok?
I think of a different definition when i think of "politician"
Perfectly acceptable. What is it?
Im listening if you can name another.
If I can name another what? Your original statement was rather broad. Not sure what you're driving at here.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3178388
I agree.
What I will say with regard to that though, is that we have already altered our government in ways the Constitution neither provides for nor allows, and we have done so outside the Constitutionally mandated process. My question would be this: If the result is something you agree with, does that make sidestepping the process ok?
No its not. I agree we are currently doing things that are not in lock step with the Constitution.We need to stop our course of action first and then clean up and right the past infractions.
 
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