Who speaks hate? You decide.

mantisman51

Active Member
"Now days we don't need weapons to form a militia to protect ourselves from the government. The government doesn't shoot up schools and malls. We need them to protect ourselves from ourselves. Given the opportunity to do so, nobody did."
The point is that even JFK acknowledged that private ownership of firearms keep the tyrannical at bay.
 

ironeagle2006

Active Member
Here is a little History for you. Why when Japan had the chance to Invade us in Early 1942 did they NOT do it. One reason they know they would be facing more people with Weapons than they had MEN in the Invasion force. Also why did Hitler not Invade the Swiss after taking all of Europe it was not because of theirt being Neutural that did not stop him from taking Belguim and the Neterhlands over. No it was the Swiss Constituion that states on the 18th Birthday every Male Swiss Citizen is given a rifle and ammo for that rifle. They are required to train with that rifle every year keep it working and if needed serve in the Army as a solider if NEEDED. Every Man in Switzerland is a Member of the ARMED FORCES. He would have lost. See what people forget is this in this nation we were given certain righhts and now the people want to remove them saying oh those are not needed now. People that forget history are Doomed to REPEAT IT. The First thing Mao Hitler and Lenin did after they came to power was BAN PRIVATE OWNERSHIPOF FIREARMS, When Stalin took over he had Unarmed sheep that when they opposed him he Slautghered. Mao and Stalin each killed 6 times more people than Aldof Hitler did in the Holocaust that is 72 million pepole that were killed under those 2 people. Hitler killed 6 million under his rule. 72 Million People that is roughly 1/4 of the Population of the USA all because they could not DEFEND THEMSELVES.
 

wangotango

Active Member
I never said private weapon ownership is bad, so why that warrants you quoting JFK and calling me a lefty, I don't know. Aside from people who are whole-heartedly opposed to guns (I am not one of those people), nobody is saying that every single weapon should be banned. An all-out ban of every single private weapon is never going to happen in this country, unless our constitution is completely tossed out. How likely is that today, tomorrow, next decade? How many instances of Martial Law have been enacted then removed in our country? Were the Soviets or Germans guaranteed the rights to own weapons? Were their rulers comparable to Reagan or Clinton or Bush or Obama? Who would our government kill if every private weapon was banned? Everyone on the left? Everyone on the right? Gun control does not automatically equate to a all-out ban on guns anymore than a speed limit and BAC-limit keeps you from driving. When crazy civilians outgun the people that are supposed to keep us safe that's a problem. In THAT case, their right to have certain weapons does not trump my right to live. That shouldn't even be a "right" or "left" issue. Anyone seen the footage of the two robbers from LA who had full-body armor, and AK-47s and shot at the LAPD (who could not stop them) for a few hours? That is the kind of stuff that should not happen. What about the Ayran Nation who want to "wipe out our zionist government." They're entitle to have weapons like you or me, I'm not gonna say they shouldn't. Do they need extended clips, body armor, and hollow-point rounds? Were we any closer to tyranny in 1994 with Clinton's assault weapons ban? What about Bush's?
 
Here is the thing. Your average Joe citizen doesn't NEED a weapon.
Like a previous poster stated, you don't need to worry about French/German/Iranian soldiers walking up and down your street trying to break into your home, I think we can all agree on that.
The next argument is that you need to bear arms in order to protect yourself from the government. I assume you are referring to the times when the former British colonial armies could yield their power and you literally needed to be able to protect yourself if they choose to do so. I understand that too, if it were the late 1700's. It;s 2011. I find it highly unlikely that in this day in age it would EVER get to the point that you would literally have to fight off the United States military in your own front yard. I know some of you would probably disagree with that, but I think that's absurd.
Lastly, one would argue that you need to bear arms in order to defend yourself in general; be it a home invasion, robbery, hold up, etc. This is the one instance where I think it holds water. However, I think that you need to have some SERIOUS restrictions on that. I'm completely convinced that something as small as a .22 could very easily be used to defend yourself in 98% of all instances. Assault rifes, sawed off shotguns, most big rifles, 357's, etc are nothing but overkill. I know for you hunters a rifle is used, which I can also understand, so I wouldn't be too bothered by that.
So I am not someone who wants to ban guns, or toss the 2nd amendment, I just think it needs some serious restrictions. Because every single time I hear the argument that "if people are carrying they can stop the Jared Laughner's of the world"... Well, it seems to me that every time a shooting happens, the only thing that stops them is a reload, a police officer, or them turning the guns on themselves. Never once do you hear the story "This shooting could have been much worse, but local resident Shooter McGraw happened to be carrying his weapon, and he took out the perp".
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Lets put restrictions and much higher taxes on cupcakes. No one needs a cupcake. Cupcakes are also a major contributor to rampant obscity and rising heathcare costs. Cupcakes serve no good purpose other than the momentary joy of eating them by the individual.
Seriously clemson....
read this well written piece on concealed carry and gun control history.
http://www.byui.edu/onlinelearning/courses/hum/202/ConcealedCarryPreventsViolentCrime.htm
Darth (cupcake) Tang
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/383184/who-speaks-hate-you-decide/20#post_3349538
Lets put restrictions and much higher taxes on cupcakes. No one needs a cupcake. Cupcakes are also a major contributor to rampant obscity and rising heathcare costs. Cupcakes serve no good purpose other than the momentary joy of eating them by the individual.
Seriously clemson....
read this well written piece on concealed carry and gun control history.
http://www.byui.edu/onlinelearning/courses/hum/202/ConcealedCarryPreventsViolentCrime.htm
Darth (cupcake) Tang
Well i'd be curious to see where that guy got his information. In my state of Ohio, the CCW law went into effect in 2005. From 2005-2010, per the FBI.gov website, the Ohio crime rate for murders per 100,000 people was 5.1, 4.7, 4.5, 4.8 and 4.5 respectively for a five year average of 4.72. From 2000-2004 the rate was 3.7, 4.0, 4.6, 4.6 and 4.4 respectively for a five year average of 4.26.
So in my backyard the murder rate went up a little. Robbery was also up almost up 10 per 100,000 and aggravated assault also rose slightly.
I mean I would say that's pretty negligible, but a life saved is a life saved. And from those numbers it doesn't look like the CCW helped anything. In fact it hurt my state. And sure it was only a "little" worse... but tell that to the families of the few extra people who died in any given year...
 

reefraff

Active Member
How many women who have had abortions have feeling of extreme remorse after because they didn't think things through? Maybe we should ban abortions because unlike a gun purchase we know an abortion will end a human life.
What you guys don't seem to get is once you grant the government the power to limit what kind of gun you may own based on some of the questionable rational in this thread whats to keep them from assuming that same power in other aspect of your life?
Ans Clemson, you better be able to get a head shot with your 22 cause the odds of stopping someone intent on attacking you are pretty slim unless you can hit the heart which is also a long shot with such a small round. Still better than nothing. A casual robber would stop at the threat of any gun but some of these crazies doing the home invasions aren't going to stop unless you put them down.
 
F

fishhugger

Guest
I know this is not the point of the thread, and all though I am in favor of little gun control....I dont know why everyone seems to think that a .22 is so ineffective in home defence
-If you cant a 10" circular target from <4 yards, you should look into some other type of security aside from a gun
-Most .22's are semi automatic, even if you miss the head you can unload a mag fairly quick into any other part of the body
-If you are using a gun for home defense you should probably know it inside and out and practice with it every now and then
-No permanent hearing loss, if any, from firing a .22 indoors.
-No deep penetration and hitting anyone innocent who may be behind a wall incase you miss...which you shouldn't.
Everyone says 'ooooh the adrenaline rush of the person you shoot can cause them to ignore the pain and keep attacking' (or something along those lines) Well, I dont think that would really apply in most situations. I can only find a handfull of written experiences where something like that has happened under these situations. Anything else I've read makes me believe that most people don't get back up from any gunshot wound.
To make this post more relevant, I REALLY hate Bill Maher and the stupid comments he made. I love how he speculates that NO ONE WILL EVER BE ABLE TO PULL THE TRIGGER under the circumstance unless they have had months/years of training. Obviously some people won't or cant, and some people wont.
I can only hope that he says it simply for the publicity.
Bill O'Reilly's got a close second on the 'people I hate most list'
 

reefraff

Active Member
22's will actually punch through walls pretty good because of the speed vs. size of the slug. I used to work with a guy who showed us the scars from taking 2 shots from a 32 which is somewhat more powerful than a 22. He said he would have driven himself to the hospital if his partner hadn't stopped him and once they got there we walked part way in until they were met with a gurney. It isn't like this guy was a gorilla either, maybe 5 10 or so. Like I said a 22 is better than nothing.
 

monsinour

Active Member
this isnt a slippery slope arguement. Get rid of the shit that you dont need for hunting. Our shores are not being invaded anytime soon. The government isnt coming to your house to steal your beef jerky and turn off your nascar.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Oh it's a slippery slope alright. First off there is many other legitimate uses for guns other than hunting. If we let the government determine what are legitimate activities how long will it be before they go after someone with say 4 reeftanks in their house.
Elements within the government already want to shut down certain voices within the talk radio world and ban certain foods so your lame jerky and nascar statement isn't all that unthinkable.
 

reefraff

Active Member
In another interesting development ABC held a town hall event. Once the event ended a shooting victim was taken into custody for making a death threat against a Tea Party rep at the event.
 

mantisman51

Active Member
Doesn't surprise me. There is a single blue stain on the Arizona map and it is the city of Tucson. Tucson is where LaRaza was holding the class in the HS to teach Hispanic (only) students how bad the white man has been everywhere in the world he has gone (not surprising, typical Democrat dogma) but went so far as to say they (the Hispanic students were in a war with America and would be needed to use force to "repatriate" Arizona to Mexico. The left-wing hate and violence has been festering for years there. Tucson is the hometown of the Klan with a tan, La Raza. So this violence, by a left-wing whacko not right-winger, is/was no surprise to me and the fact that a left-winger at the "town hall" went all gangsta, again, is no surprise. It is the modus-operandi of the Democrat machine that runs the blue stain.
 

monsinour

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/383184/who-speaks-hate-you-decide/20#post_3349852
Oh it's a slippery slope alright. First off there is many other legitimate uses for guns other than hunting. If we let the government determine what are legitimate activities how long will it be before they go after someone with say 4 reeftanks in their house.
Elements within the government already want to shut down certain voices within the talk radio world and ban certain foods so your lame jerky and nascar statement isn't all that unthinkable.
what other legitimate uses are there?
hunting - sure
target practice - sure
robbing the convinecne store - absolutely and I damn well better have that huge ass clip so that if I shoot 30 times and miss, that 31st bullet will make all the difference in the world.
get real. I am done with this conversation.
 

wangotango

Active Member
The article does not mention the man's political affiliation. But to follow your argument that only the left-wingers make threats and incite violence, that point is irrelevant. Just like I'm a lefty for thinking civilians don't need their own personal armory... What he said was stupid, and hateful. Sometimes people say things without getting the views, opinions and expressed written consent of everyone else on their "side." As far as violence? the article doesn't mention him having or using a weapon of any kind.
I would imagine that the "my side is innocent, it's all the other guys" defense would get tiresome after a while. And let's be perfectly honest, if anyone thinks that hate is one-way/one-source in this country they're delusional. In your mind are you convinced that "the right" has absolutely no blemishes against them?
 

mantisman51

Active Member
Nope, but we don't have a print, tv and radio, entertainment and political world blaming the left for every tragedy that comes down the pike. Also, you 3 anti-gunners getting emboldened by each others anti 2nd amendment rhetoric just made every one who is still reading see we are right. You see no need for a second amendment so it should be eliminated. Even better, end the 1st amendment. After all there's no chance the government is going to stop us from going to church or speaking our mind right? So what is the point of a 1st amendment?
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
I forget who said "George Bush hates black people."?
God forbid Rush or any conservative say anything close to that.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsinour http:///forum/thread/383184/who-speaks-hate-you-decide/20#post_3350097
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/thread/383184/who-speaks-hate-you-decide/20#post_3349852
Oh it's a slippery slope alright. First off there is many other legitimate uses for guns other than hunting. If we let the government determine what are legitimate activities how long will it be before they go after someone with say 4 reeftanks in their house.
Elements within the government already want to shut down certain voices within the talk radio world and ban certain foods so your lame jerky and nascar statement isn't all that unthinkable.
what other legitimate uses are there?
hunting - sure
target practice - sure
robbing the convinecne store - absolutely and I damn well better have that huge ass clip so that if I shoot 30 times and miss, that 31st bullet will make all the difference in the world.
get real. I am done with this conversation.
If I couldn't come up with a better argument I'd run away too LOL!
I guess you don't think personal defense is a legitimate use of a gun.
 

wangotango

Active Member
No? There isn't a soul on the "right" who points fingers? Not a single one? You've watched/read them ALL? I suppose Ann Coulter is a real nice lady? You (again) just pretty much just said "my side may do it too, but not really it's all the "left."
Quote someone in this thread who said the second amendment should be tossed. Nobody said people shouldn't have any guns at all. That's all you hear when people say gun control. You're convinced that it's all or nothing. It isn't. You can have a rifle. You can't have an Abrams tank. Of course, if you did allow civilians to have any type of weapon the "lefties" would probably turn this place into Somalia.... Just because you're a rational person and don't think civilian-accessibly weaponry should match military weaponry doesn't mean you're anti-gun. Is thinking my neighbor doesn't need a M2 Browning 50cal with 60,000 rounds anti gun? He goes hunting and I couldn't care less about that. Good for him. And let's just for $h!ts and giggles say there was a ban on "weapons." You think they're gonna be wiped out completely? Prohibition didn't work. The ban on illegal drugs doesn't work.
"...you 3 anti-gunners getting emboldened by each others anti 2nd amendment rhetoric just made every one who is still reading see we are right
." Why am I anti-gun? Why are you right?
Ditching the first amendment? Calm down. Are we going through the Constitution line by line to point out what the "left" should hate? To you, anyone who doesn't think the same way about our government/country/constitution is a "lefty."
 
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