Who uses a 100micron bag in their wet/dry sump?

[stieger]

Hi,
Going to build a sump with inlet from 2 overflows (either going 150G, 180G or 240G - not sure which yet). Anyway, in the overflows I plan on having DSL material prior to water flowing to the sump.
Originally, I was planning on just having additional DLS material prior to the water hitting the bio ball chamber, BUT now I'm wondering should I use a 100 micron bag to catch additional organic matter, then have the water flow directly to the bio ball chamber?
Who's running a 50-100micron bag for mechanical/organic matter filteration prior to a bio ball chamber? If so, are you using any pre-filter (DSL) material in the overflow box?
Is having both overkill?
Any pro's or con's?
Stieger

 

[daniel411]

I've stopped running mechanical filtration, other than what carbon removes in a hot magnum on occassion.
However, I can "really" advise (from personal mishap) that filter floss in your over flow is NOT a good idea! Even just for a little bit to clear the water up after heavy cleaning of the tank.
If you choose to run a gravity fed micron filter, than make sure to allow enough flow so that your pump doesn't overflow your display. A relief piping, bypass might really be worthwhile.

 

[zap800]

well to tell you the truth i use a piece of pantyhose to hold my carbon in my container that sits inside my skimmer. so i guess this is like one of those bags lol.

 

[stieger]

Hey Daniel411,
What's so bad about having dsl or filter floss material in the overflow?
Every tank I've seen either has it, or bio-balls, which I always thought was a little odd because you culdn't clean it.
Atleast with the DSL/filter floss you can pull a lot of crap out of the water before it hits the sump.
What's your thoughts on it, and what do you have in your overflow? It begs the question, you must have something, right?
Thx,
stieger

 

[badkharma]

I'll second that question. Every tank I've seen that has a sump runs a micron sock...

 

[golfish]

the sock's, sponges, micron filters are not normaly used on reef tanks.
1) there's no need for em
2) they have to be cleaned at least once a week, even that might be too long
3) nitrate producers, they are.
I haven't seen them on a tank since the mid 90's.........

 

[badkharma]

Originally posted by golfish
the sock's, sponges, micron filters are not normaly used on reef tanks.
1) there's no need for em
2) they have to be cleaned at least once a week, even that might be too long
3) nitrate producers, they are.
I haven't seen them on a tank since the mid 90's.........
To each their own I guess, but every reef tank I've seen has a sock. Yes, they have to be cleaned often and can be nitrate factories if they are not cleaned. But what else would there be for mechanical/particulate filtration?

 

[golfish]

Originally posted by Badkharma
but every reef tank I've seen has a sock.
You can't count seeing the same reef over and over again

You've only seen the one tank at your LFS. Wait unit you see a tank put together by somebody who knows what their doing.
Originally posted by Badkharma
But what else would there be for mechanical/particulate filtration?

A GOOD skimmer comes to mind. You go right ahead and use your little sock, you'll learn real quick that its not needed.

 

[spyderbilt]

I see people bashing bio balls, fliter floss etc., because they produce Nitrate. well isn't that the reason for bio filtration to break the more harmful material down into nitrates? and remove them by water. I'm pretty sure that leving them as amonia and nitrite isn't better for fish. so by removing the floss your are just allowing your LR to break down the material instead. Feed back is wanted want to here what u guys think

 

[golfish]

I'm talking reef tanks here...Your 100% correct, however, we have LR and LS that will do that, plus it takes it one step further and breaks down the nitrates. Bio balls, and other mechanical just break down the nitrites to nitrates, so it produces MORE nitrates for the LR and LS to deal with. That's just one reason people suggest not to use em. If you setup a reef tank right, with plenty of LR, some deep sand, a good skimmer you can probably get away with using bio balls and other mechanical filtration, there's just no real NEED for it.
I speak from my own experiences. I've used all the fun stuff mentioned above.

 

[badkharma]

Originally posted by golfish
You can't count seeing the same reef over and over again

You've only seen the one tank at your LFS. Wait unit you see a tank put together by somebody who knows what their doing.
A GOOD skimmer comes to mind. You go right ahead and use your little sock, you'll learn real quick that its not needed.
Har har. What in the world makes you think that I've only seen ONE reef tank!?? I'm insulted. I haven't been in this hobby for 20 years like you, but I've been in it long enough to see more than one tank!! I won't say that I've seen more than you, because I probably haven't, but I have seen more than I can count, and I kid you not, they all ran socks. You should know that a skimmer does NOT mechanically filter out large floating visible particles. Sure, I agree, it's not NEEDED (the sock/floss/whatever). But what happens when sand/particulate matter gets stirred up (or some other event, like floating arm hairs? )? It'll end up in your sump and could damage your skimmer pump, return pump, and whatever pump. I see the sock as a means of collecting larger objects that shouldn't be floating around and that can't be skimmed. I'm not too lazy to change a sock once a week if it means polished water of a higher quality. The nitrates will only start accumulating if you don't keep it clean. And since you think your tank is superior to all the ones I've seen (with your experience, I'm sure it's awesome - no, really), lets see some proof (read: pics).

 

[golfish]

tell ya what, since you live so close to me how about you tell me where all those "would be" reef tank are so I can go see the socks. Some how I bet your going to give me a list of LFS

Maybe some day the light will come on over your head and you'll say to your self "he was right" that's not going to happen until you actully have some experience with reef tanks.
But what happens when sand/particulate matter gets stirred up (or some other event, like floating arm hairs? )? It'll end up in your sump and could damage your skimmer pump,
There are a lot more pump besides the skimmers pump. So your saying that we should have socks on our in tank powerheads? HOB skimmers? closed loops systems? :thinking: Try again, your wrong.
but I have seen more than I can count, and I kid you not, they all ran socks.
Let me get my boots on, its getting pretty deep in here.
Sure, I agree, it's not NEEDED
Your finally starting to make some sense...
And since you think your tank is superior to all the ones I've seen
Wow, when did I say that. My tanks kind of ugly right now seeing how its only 6 months old. I can prove to you that I don't have any sponges, socks or other kinds of filters if that's what you want.
If you want to run socks or sponges go right ahead. Like we BOTH said, their not needed.

 

[baddlord77]

I do...works pretty damn good....picks up alot of misc junk......but than again i have not yet purchased a skimmer (which i want to do). But yeh, just a extra step to me to pull out everything i possibly can

 

[sly]

Originally posted by Spyderbilt
I see people bashing bio balls, fliter floss etc., because they produce Nitrate. well isn't that the reason for bio filtration to break the more harmful material down into nitrates? Feed back is wanted want to here what u guys think
I also speak from experience. I have bio-balls in my filter and have 0 Nitrates.
At one time I had a nitrate problem and it turned out to be the foam blocks that sat in the bottom of my wet/dry had accumulated too much junk in them. The solution: removed the blocks. Now I rely on just a foam prefilter to catch stuff in my overflow before it gets to my balls.

I've never cleaned my bio-balls. Not in over 2 years. But I do rinse out my prefilter once every 2 weeks to keep junk out of it. My nitrates are 0 as well as my ammon. and nitrite. I also have added mangroves to my fuge which are supposed to help with nitrate, but my level was 0 before I added them.

 

[badkharma]

Originally posted by golfish
tell ya what, since you live so close to me how about you tell me where all those "would be" reef tank are so I can go see the socks. Some how I bet your going to give me a list of LFS

Maybe some day the light will come on over your head and you'll say to your self "he was right" that's not going to happen until you actully have some experience with reef tanks.
There are a lot more pump besides the skimmers pump. So your saying that we should have socks on our in tank powerheads? HOB skimmers? closed loops systems? :thinking: Try again, your wrong.
Let me get my boots on, its getting pretty deep in here.
Your finally starting to make some sense...
Wow, when did I say that. My tanks kind of ugly right now seeing how its only 6 months old. I can prove to you that I don't have any sponges, socks or other kinds of filters if that's what you want.
If you want to run socks or sponges go right ahead. Like we BOTH said, their not needed.
No, I had some coworkers at my previous job with decent tanks, and yes, some that I mention are LFS too. Who's to say an LFS can't make a decent tank?? Some of the best tanks in the country are in-store tanks. Your LFS's must really be sub-par (yes there are many around here too - but there are ones that are top-notch).
Answer me this: If one uses the filter sock, and cleans it out diligently before it clogs and before the nitrates are affected, will the cleaniness and quality of the water not be higher than a tank without it??

 

[sly]

Yes.

 

[golfish]

Originally posted by Badkharma
Answer me this: If one uses the filter sock, and cleans it out diligently before it clogs and before the nitrates are affected, will the cleaniness and quality of the water not be higher than a tank without it??
In a tank with a DSB and GOOD skimmer or a BB tank with lots of flow (I've used both) and a GOOD skimmer your filter sock will make no difference at all.
The idea in a BB tank is too keep all the detritus flowing up off the tank bottom, sooner or later the skimmer will pull it out.
My current tank is BB plus I have a DSB in the 30 gal fuge. My sump collects some detritus once in a while but I either vacuum that out or stir it up with a powerhead.
I have to say that I did use a large filter sock on my old 150 when I first started it up. I was trying to run 2500+ GPH through the 40 gal sump. Basically, all the water that went down the overflow went through the sock. The reason I did this was to get out all the bubbles that formed from that much water crashing down. The sock worked real good for about 2 days, then it clogged up and water just flowed over it.
You keep talking like I said these things are bad to use. I just said their not normally used on reef tanks and their not needed. If you want to use em go right ahead, just keep em clean.

 

[badkharma]

I WAS under the impression that you said they were bad to use. It sounded like it to me. My apologies. I like fiddling around with stuff on the tank all the time, so I'll probably run them anyway until I get tired of changing them out. It's good to know that they are not NEEDED - but my concern was if it improves the water quality (as long as it's properly maintained), why not use it. Anything to make a better home for what we are in this hobby for...
BTW, I love our little back-and-forths. I'm in my busy season at work (pushing 16 hour days), and it's always good to take a break and come check on the forums to reply to our little disagreements/opposing views, etc. I also learn more in this hobby by talking to people like you who have decades of experience and "quasi-arguing" with them to squeeze all their knowledge out and soak in as much as I can.

 

[badkharma]

BTW, do they help reduce micro-bubbles in the sump?

 

[golfish]

Originally posted by Badkharma
BTW, do they help reduce micro-bubbles in the sump?
That's probably why most people use em. When they get clogged the water will just flow overaround em...that's the reason why I've been telling you not to push a lot of water through your sump.
Originally posted by Badkharma
I WAS under the impression that you said they were bad to use. It sounded like it to me.
Nope, never said that. I just said they were not needed..If not cleaned every few dayswhen needed (sometimes everyday) then that's when they become bad to use.