Why is Everyone so Against the War?

[jmick]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Actually he was attacking our pilots in 2000.
So Saddam himself was taking pot shots at or pilots? Or was Saddam contacted before each and every shot was taken and authorized them to do so? I'd be willing to bet they were very random acts and would be very few and far between...how many sorties were made over Iraq and how many planes were shot at or shot down?
If we had hostile planes flying over our country don't you think they'd be shot at without the knowledge and authorization of our leader?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Jmick
So Saddam himself was taking pot shots at or pilots? Or was Saddam contacted before each and every shot was taken and authorized them to do so? I'd be willing to bet they were very random acts and would be very few and far between...how many sorties were made over Iraq and how many planes were shot at or shot down?
If we had hostile planes flying over our country don't you think they'd be shot at without the knowledge and authorization of our leader?
DMZ was set up by the UN. And we, under UN, athority monitored. So techically it wasn't Iraq sovereign airspace.
He shot at them on a regular basis, it was no random act. I don't remember any planes being shot down.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
DMZ was set up by the UN. And we, under UN, athority monitored. So techically it wasn't Iraq sovereign airspace.
He shot at them on a regular basis, it was no random act. I don't remember any planes being shot down.
So you can say with 100% certainty that he authorized each and every shot and none were random (you know, bored military guys sitting around with big guns waiting for the planes to fly by)?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by crimzy
To be honest, I'll keep voicing my opinion until our troops are home. The more people that speak out against the war, the sooner we can begin saving lives. I cannot sit quietly while young Americans are callously sacrificed.
These are the arguments that I see anti-war proponent say.
Factually checkable
1. Bush lied/no WMD's
2. Saddaam was not a threat.
3. Saddaam did not plan 9-11.
4. We are encouraging recruitement.
5. The reason we picked Iraq was so Bush's cronies could make billions of dollars.
6. We aren't popular in the world because of the war in Iraq.
7. We could have spend the money better at home.
Idealogical Arguments
1. We can't win.
2. The people there aren't able to govern themselves.
3. Their government is inept. ( I haven't seen this here) But it is what some of the Dems are saying in congress.
As far as I can tell all the arguments stem from these topics. For instance Since we can't win then we are wasting our troops lives.
I just don't buy these arguments. I think there are some very valid counter arguments for every thing that we can factually check.
Second I've seen some different sources. I just don't think op-eds are valid sources. I don't really think the AP can be expected to report unbiased. Look how they are sweeping this Hilary scandle under the rug. Some how she doesn't know a 800,000 dollar donor? Come on. I'm not that stupid.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
Here you go!
http://www.tilrc.org/docs/0306veterans.htm
Didn't expect proof did ya?

I'm just joking. I love these friendly debates.
A quote from the article: "I think it's probably on a par with what you would expect," said Dr. Charles W. Hoge of Walter Reed.
It also states that most required only one or two visits to resolve their concerns. Hardly sounds like "mental issues".

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Jmick
So you can say with 100% certainty that he authorized each and every shot and none were random (you know, bored military guys sitting around with big guns waiting for the planes to fly by)?
No, I haven't read his orders saying that. But they were regularly fired on, in a DMZ that was established by the UN. But bored soldiers don't just shoot expensive multi million dollars SAMS. We aren't just talking flack.
Funny it sounds like your defending Saddaam...

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by crimzy
To be honest, I'll keep voicing my opinion until our troops are home. The more people that speak out against the war, the sooner we can begin saving lives. I cannot sit quietly while young Americans are callously sacrificed.
Do you honestly think that if we brought all our troops home tomorrow, that the terrorists would not rebuild? Do you really believe they would be content and not attack us again?
We knew this would not be a quick or easy war. I don't understand how people who initially supported going after the terrorists now tries to blame everything on Bush.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by Darknes
I don't understand how people who initially supported going after the terrorists now tries to blame everything on Bush.
Because by going to war in Iraq we were NOT going after the terrorists.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by crimzy
You think that pulling our soldiers out would show weakness, I think it would show intelligence. As long as we're there to fight, there will be someone to fight us. The only way to end the nonsense would be for someone with a brain to understand that someone must stop fighting for there to be peace. The opposing forces are not being weakened, they are being strengthened by those who want to fight us but do not want war in their land (Iran, Saudis, etc). We went there to fight them and they will continue to fight. We should leave... we should have never been there to begin with.
Intelligence?

No, it will strengthen their recruitment; they scared away the United States. The war wouldn't be over to them; that would only be the beginning.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Because by going to war in Iraq we were NOT going after the terrorists.
They were harboring terrorists. They were a threat.
Saddam had time to cooperate.

 

[clown boy]

If you don't mind moderators, I'm going to jump in here and quickly ask that you all keep this discussion friendly. I'm not saying that you haven't... as a matter of fact, I'm impressed. I'm just throwing out a reminder so this isn't closed.

 

[sepulatian]

Look at the polls across our great country. It is staggering how many people agree that this war has gone on long enough WITHOUT results. Those that are clinging to the thought that our president is doing the right thing are kidding themselves. Civilians are not the only people that are fed up with this nonesense. The senate is as well. Did anyone happen to catch the news last night? Bush is planning on pulling some troops out before next summer. My brother told me this months ago when he got called to Iraq. He is HOPING to go over before the first of the year. He told us months ago that Bush will pull some troops out long before the election so that it looks like his party is "doing the right thing". Those that were already there will be the first to go home. He wants to be there so that he can be on the list of those that are going home. New troops will be stuck there. I am going to see him tommorow. He is off this weekend before going to Iraq.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Because by going to war in Iraq we were NOT going after the terrorists.
EXACTLY!!!! This war has nothing to do with terrorists. There is not a trace of any chemical used to make a WMD over there. They have nothing. They used our own planes and learned how to use them in the United States!

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Look at the polls across our great country. It is staggering how many people agree that this war has gone on long enough WITHOUT results. Those that are clinging to the thought that our prsident is doing the right thing are kidding themselves. Civilians are not the only people that are fed up with this nonesense. The senate is as well. Did anyone happen to catch the news last night? Bush is planning on pulling some troops out before next summer. My brother told me this months ago when he got called to Iraq. He is HOPING to go over before the first of the year. He told us months ago that Bush will pull some troops out long before the election so that it looks like his party is "doing the right thing". Those that were already there will be the first to go home. He wants to be there so that he can be on the list of those that are going home. New troops will be stuck there. I am going to see him tommorow. He is off this weekend for Iraq.
Tell your brother thanks for his service. I agree the war has been long, and do support a reduction in troops.
However, I think keeping a presence is necessary. Iraq doesn't need to establish a democracy, but we need to be sure it won't harbor terrorists.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Darknes
Tell your brother thanks for his service. I agree the war has been long, and do support a reduction in troops.
However, I think keeping a presence is necessary. Iraq doesn't need to establish a democracy, but we need to be sure it won't harbor terrorists.
Thanks, I will! I do agree that monitoring is necessary. Not forcing our beliefs on them which is making them even more angry. Our way is not necessarily the right way for everyone.

 

[ozmar]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Was the area a haven for terrorists before the US decided to go to war against Iraq? Or did they flock to Iraq to have an opportunity to take advantage of the instability we were sure to create and for the opportunity to kill Americans?
Bring 'em on! (to quote a certain prez...) If they come to Iraq, then that's where a good portion of our (awesome) military is, and that's where we can kill 'em.
Originally Posted by Jmick
Why does no one talk about putting pressure on other countries (such as the Arabs) who suport the terrorists with very large sums of cash? Take away the money and you cripple them and their efforts to launch future attacks against the US. Our actions in the Iraq have only strenghtened the resolve of many people against us and I am sure a lot more sympahtic money is now flowing into their hands.
For one thing, "Arab" is an ethnic group, and a rather large and diverse one at that, and not a country. But I think I get your point, and its well taken. I presume you'd be in favor of putting more pressure on countries like Iran, Saudia Arabia & Syria to liberalize and to undercut their economic and moral support for terrorist factions?
Sounds good to me!
Ozmar the Combative

 

[ozmar]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Intelligence reports of WMD"S? LOLOLOL. Everyone on the planet knows that was a bunch of BS, and an excuse for Bush to go over there.
Sorry, but you seem to belaboring under a sadly common misperception. This is one of those LIES which, when repeated often enough, becomes "common knowledge".
"Everyone on the planet", to use your phrase, "knew", circa 2001, that Saddam had or likely had WMDs or (and this distinction is important) actively sought to obtain them. That this common wisdom was wrong in the degree to which Saddam had achieved these goals does not make it a "bunch of BS", nor a mere "excuse" for the US to take the appropriate and necessary action of removing Saddam from power.
Ozmar the Clarifying

 

[ozmar]

Re: Democracy in Iraq.
Originally Posted by Jmick
What if we were to pull out in the next month, would it stay?
Surely not. Which is one of several reasons why we must stay there until it can be sustained by free Iraqis.

 

[ozmar]

Re: Staying in Iraq.
Originally Posted by Jmick
How long are you willing to sacrifice american lives for something that can not stand on its own?
Well, let's see... we're still in South Korea, and some would argue (and I think they're right) that our presence there is key to keeping South Korea free from North Korea's lustful tyranny. I would certainly consider the cost worth paying for South Korea's contributions to freedom and the world economy, and I imagine that, oh say, about 98% of South Koreans would heartily agree.

 

[aanthony]

this is basically my opinion on the war
We are making it easier on the terrorists
Heres why:
Because way back when, before we were in Iraq they had to travel all the way to america to kill americans, now we are in their home land, so if they want to kill some americans, its only a 20 minute drive