Why is Everyone so Against the War?

[ozmar]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Your above statement is an oxymoron, an inherent contradiction. You are advocating FORCED FREEDOM. This is not about helping the Iraqis create a democracy, we are forcing them into democracy. You claim that one man has moral authority only to the extent that it is given by another man. So your argument here seems to be that by dropping bomb after bomb, we are "giving them freedom". Take off the rose colored glasses. We are not building a democracy, we are destroying a nation... and we are losing thousands of our own people in the process.
Anytime freedom has to be forced, by definition it is no longer free. "Be free or I will kill you." Sounds perfectly logical to me.
Oh right, I forgot we went over there and said "be free or we'll kill you."
You know, maybe, just maybe... the Iraqi people really do want to live free and peacefully in an open society enjoying the rights and freedoms that we take for granted. Ever think of that?
If that is the case, then we're not FORCING anything on anyone, except for the obvious forcing of death onto Saddam and his ilk, which as I've already said, is a moral killing due to their crimes and determination to inflict their totalitarianism on anyone they can.
Its not oxymoronic at all. What did we do at the end of our own Civil War? We FORCED freedom on all the black slaves in America. We did destroy a civilization: one built and supported on the backs of slaves. We killed a lot of people, many of them very good people, to do it. Was it immoral or unjustified to do so? History has judged, I believe rightly, that it was not.
In the same way, we're liberating the Iraqi people. We're giving them the opportunity to join us as free men and women and to forge their society based on the universal rights of all mankind.
Ozmar the Idealist

 

[ozmar]

MSGMAC47,
Thank you very much for your service. You're a credit to your nation and I am deeply grateful.
Good luck, and God bless! We'll keep the home fires burning in support of your mission!
-Ozmar the Grateful Civilian

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by MSGMAC47
Good morning all. I'm getting ready to deploy for the third time with the 101st Airborne Division. As much as I hate to leave my family I realize that I am not only fighting for the feedom of my family and yours, but I am also fighting for the freedom of Iraq and Afghan. I am ready and I am willing.
If you have ever been there you could see smiles on faces when we visit villages. It’s a great feeling watching kids play and hearing them laugh trying to get you to play soccer with them. Mothers thanking you a thousand times for something as small as fresh water and food. Fathers hugging you for giving them the opportunity to provide for their family by giving them work. Teachers crying because we supply their schools with much needed school supplies. But you will never see that on the news. Just blood shed. Guess it makes better news for the reporters.
I won't deny that there are those that hate Americans, but the love for Americans out weighs the hate no matter what TV or the poles say. Sometimes I wonder how information is gathered for stats. If you are not there how can you possibly know? If you don't show the good how can the people back at home know?
I respect everyone's opinion. I serve to make sure all of you have the right to voice it, good or bad. I just wanted to say that I am willing to go each time I am told to do so. Its funny how everyone was so patriotic before and when the war started to turn around and shout that it’s wrong now. It’s war. Lives are lost. To say they were lost for nothing is a slap in our (soldiers) face. But for us, we make sure you have that right to say it. Thank you goes to those who support us. For those that don’t, you are welcome for the right not to. Take care.
Let me say this to you... I am probably one of the most outspoken opponents of the war. I appreciate your service and want to support our troops. However, I feel sick every time one of the soldiers from my hometown is killed and leaves a family behind. All of this for, what I believe to be Bush's personal and corrupt reasons. The reality is that I cherish our troops. I will pray that you shall return home safe. IMO, it is much more important to protect your children from being fatherless than it is to chase this misguided war. Would you try to save every corner in the globe at personal risk to yourself and your family? I applaud your loyalty but worry about your family. Even if you are a buckeye.
Good luck and return safe. I hope that you return QUICKLY, even if you disagree.

 

[rylan1]

This thing really exploded overnight...you guys added like 4 pages... I must also say that I support the soilders and hope and pray for their safety and success. We are indeed thankful for them. However, I think the decisions that are leading these soilders are taking us down the wrong path, and are not well though out or planned. I think this Admin is doing a terrible job as do 7 out of 10 Americans. What most of you fail to realize is the very reason why they want to eliminate us, and that killing them will not lead to their surrender... they are glad to die and consider this as being a martyr. They don't mourn their dead, they celebrate it... I've read these posts and they mostly are closed minded and don't account for any solutions accept for death as I mentioned we can not stop this through warfare, there will always be someone to pick up the sword. We are not the moral authority...according to them they fight us because we are immoral. The problem is the ideology, which no one seems to want to acknowledge. They have their 'warriors' all over the world and in all western countries. This war inspires them... the only way to end the radical Islamists movement is to do it diplomatically, because they will fight us forever.. Hundreds of innocent people are dying in Iraq everyday, and as I mentioned earlier that if a leader steps up and starts a democracy, they will be killed and a radical Islamist group will take over the government. The only way to take hold of that country is to have a powerful person in that office like Hussein.

 

[rudedog40]

Yea, this war just keeps getting better and better. Here's a major player on the Sunni side that was just killed yesterday --
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20754861/
That Democratic process is working great!!

 

[rylan1]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Yea, this war just keeps getting better and better. Here's a major player on the Sunni side that was just killed yesterday --
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20754861/
That Democratic process is working great!!
thats another issue that our leaders haven't taken into account..the shi'ite and sunni populations and which group will have power...who ever does, the other will be opposed and will take them out.

 

[darthtang aw]

MSG, thank you for your service and watch your 6 over there.
Originally Posted by crimzy
All of this for, what I believe to be Bush's personal and corrupt reasons. .
Good luck and return safe. I hope that you return QUICKLY, even if you disagree.
This is the one statement that bothers me the most when people say they are against the war. "Bush's criminal and corrupt reasons.
Let's break it down.
Every major intelligence source in the world stated Saddam had WMDs. That was wrong. Yet Bush wasn't the only one saying this.However this was wrong
Sadaam and his forces shot at our pilots throughout the cease fire. Now I see some say, how do you know Sadaam order that and knew about it. Yet when Abu Graib is brought up and our "torchering" terrorists within those walls, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield were all blamed by those oppossed to the actions...So If Sadaam gets a pass for possible negligence then Bush and the administration should as well., However, if you feel Bush and Company hold responsibility for these acts then you should hold Sadaam as well. And if we have to hold Sadaam as accountable, then He committed acts of war/terror against our forces.
Third, how many resolutions did Sadaam Violate? 12-13? So he and his regime can ignore international law? Many of you cite this war as illegal as it wasn't sanctioned by the U.N. and violates U.N. law or congress didn't vote to "declare war"...Yet you are willing to ignore the 12 resolutions Sadaam and his regime repeatedly violated and ignored.
4th, Sadaam was committing a "mild" Genocide against the Kurds. He on numerous occasions singled this ethnic group out for extermination and torture. Is this Ok with you? You are concerned about the Iraqi people and their loss of life now, yet I heard no outcry before from the same that seem concerned for the citizens now.
5th...at the onset of our Afghanistan campaign many Al Qaeda operatives fled country. A few found haven in Iraq through Sadaam and his ISS. Add the FACT he paid the families of suicide bombers large sums of money for their suicide attacks against western countries.
6th. The president gave Sadaam 6 month to comply and with the resolutions and give the inspectors complete access to his facilities as required under his resolutions. He refused all of this. Sadaam could have prevented this by just saying here look....He was basically under house arrest to the U.N. yet when the "police" showed up to perform their legal searches, he denied them.
Please refute these facts...Please I beg you. If you can, I will understand your non support of this war effort. I will understand your dislike for the president.
However if you continue to say it is because of his daddy or over oil and overlook these facts and never address them...You my fellow Americans are huge hypocrites. Show me one single regime in the world doing and violating all of these things at once!!!!

 

[darthtang aw]

I will add this much. At this point they have security forces and a governing body in place. I would support pulling our troops out of this "civil war" to Kuwait and see if this calms things down as many of the left viewpoint Believe. However if it escalates or continues at the level it is now, our forces go back in and restore the semblance of order we had.
I would even go so far as to just place our forces along the borders to ensure a neighboring country does not attempt to invade, but I would move them out of Baghdad and some hot zones. Just to test your theory that all of this is because we are there.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
MSG, thank you for your service and watch your 6 over there.
This is the one statement that bothers me the most when people say they are against the war. "Bush's criminal and corrupt reasons.
Let's break it down.
Every major intelligence source in the world stated Saddam had WMDs. That was wrong. Yet Bush wasn't the only one saying this.However this was wrong
Sadaam and his forces shot at our pilots throughout the cease fire. Now I see some say, how do you know Sadaam order that and knew about it. Yet when Abu Graib is brought up and our "torchering" terrorists within those walls, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield were all blamed by those oppossed to the actions...So If Sadaam gets a pass for possible negligence then Bush and the administration should as well., However, if you feel Bush and Company hold responsibility for these acts then you should hold Sadaam as well. And if we have to hold Sadaam as accountable, then He committed acts of war/terror against our forces.
Third, how many resolutions did Sadaam Violate? 12-13? So he and his regime can ignore international law? Many of you cite this war as illegal as it wasn't sanctioned by the U.N. and violates U.N. law or congress didn't vote to "declare war"...Yet you are willing to ignore the 12 resolutions Sadaam and his regime repeatedly violated and ignored.
4th, Sadaam was committing a "mild" Genocide against the Kurds. He on numerous occasions singled this ethnic group out for extermination and torture. Is this Ok with you? You are concerned about the Iraqi people and their loss of life now, yet I heard no outcry before from the same that seem concerned for the citizens now.
5th...at the onset of our Afghanistan campaign many Al Qaeda operatives fled country. A few found haven in Iraq through Sadaam and his ISS. Add the FACT he paid the families of suicide bombers large sums of money for their suicide attacks against western countries.
6th. The president gave Sadaam 6 month to comply and with the resolutions and give the inspectors complete access to his facilities as required under his resolutions. He refused all of this. Sadaam could have prevented this by just saying here look....He was basically under house arrest to the U.N. yet when the "police" showed up to perform their legal searches, he denied them.
Please refute these facts...Please I beg you. If you can, I will understand your non support of this war effort. I will understand your dislike for the president.
However if you continue to say it is because of his daddy or over oil and overlook these facts and never address them...You my fellow Americans are huge hypocrites. Show me one single regime in the world doing and violating all of these things at once!!!!

OK. Based on these statements, the purpose of the invasion on Iraq (i.e The War), was to take Sadaam out of power. We did that. So why are we continuing with this war 2 - 3 years after that happened? That's the issue now. We accomplished what our initial intentions were for this war. Now all we're doing is fighting tribal factions and trying to make peace and order in a country that will never accept it.
What other regime is causing genocide in this world? How about the Dafur conflict in Sudan. How many thousands of innocent people are being killed in that nonsensical conflict? Don't see the US getting involved in that one. Why not? Maybe because there's nothing in that country that would benefit the US if they did get involved? Like oil?

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
OK. Based on these statements, the purpose of the invasion on Iraq (i.e The War), was to take Sadaam out of power. We did that. So why are we continuing with this war 2 - 3 years after that happened? That's the issue now. We accomplished what our initial intentions were for this war. Now all we're doing is fighting tribal factions and trying to make peace and order in a country that will never accept it.
What other regime is causing genocide in this world? How about the Dafur conflict in Sudan. How many thousands of innocent people are being killed in that nonsensical conflict? Don't see the US getting involved in that one. Why not? Maybe because there's nothing in that country that would benefit the US if they did get involved? Like oil?

Like I said, does the Dafur conflict have as many reasons as we had for Iraq? Beside Genocide, what else has the Dafur regime violated? And to my knowledge the U.N. is in Dafur with all their glory and troops. Don't get me wrong, I personally would love to see our troops in Dafur...as would many americans...Have you wrote your congressman and brought this up? If not then it must not be a concern...truly for you.
Secondly, after world war 2 we left 76,000 troops in Germany. They helped rebuild and bring stability to the continent....We are still there today. We are still in South Korea protecting the border between S. Korea nad N. Korea, occassionally a fire fight erupts...why are we still there...I here no outcry to bring our boys home from either place.

 

[crimzy]

Here are my responses...
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Let's break it down.
Every major intelligence source in the world stated Saddam had WMDs. That was wrong. Yet Bush wasn't the only one saying this.However this was wrong
A lot of people, including Bush, play these word games. Fact is that Bush proclaimed that Iraq had, or was very close to having, nuclear weapons. That was what he continuously told the American people. The intelligence that has come out since then has revealed that nothing could be further from the truth. However people have expanded the claim and suggested that our finding of chemical munitions are evidence that he was right. All of the intelligence has shown that Iraq was very far from nukes and that Bush, when he took office, had every intention of going to war in Iraq. In fact, there was a report that when 9/11 occurred, he instructed his people to FIND evidence that Iraq was behind it.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Sadaam and his forces shot at our pilots throughout the cease fire. Now I see some say, how do you know Sadaam order that and knew about it. Yet when Abu Graib is brought up and our "torchering" terrorists within those walls, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield were all blamed by those oppossed to the actions...So If Sadaam gets a pass for possible negligence then Bush and the administration should as well., However, if you feel Bush and Company hold responsibility for these acts then you should hold Sadaam as well. And if we have to hold Sadaam as accountable, then He committed acts of war/terror against our forces.
Shooting at soldiers is not an act of terrorism, it may be an act of war but not an act of terrorism. There have been conflicts in the past. A pilot who comes under attack has every right to return fire. Are you suggesting that someone taking a pot shot or two at our planes justifies war? We don't even know if the people shooting at planes were officer's under Saddam's regimes. They could easily have been tribal or militia.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Third, how many resolutions did Sadaam Violate? 12-13? So he and his regime can ignore international law? Many of you cite this war as illegal as it wasn't sanctioned by the U.N. and violates U.N. law or congress didn't vote to "declare war"...Yet you are willing to ignore the 12 resolutions Sadaam and his regime repeatedly violated and ignored.
Many countries have violated UN resolutions. In fact, the US violated the UN's mandates and procedures by going to war without approval. Do you pick and choose which UN resolutions must be enforced by war and which can be ignored? Or are you saying that it is OK if we disobey the UN because they are weak and meaningless, but when Iraq does it then the war must start.
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Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
4th, Sadaam was committing a "mild" Genocide against the Kurds. He on numerous occasions singled this ethnic group out for extermination and torture. Is this Ok with you? You are concerned about the Iraqi people and their loss of life now, yet I heard no outcry before from the same that seem concerned for the citizens now.
Did we go to war against the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Did we go to war with South Africa during Apartheid? Have we gone to war with North Korea? To be honest with you, I really don't care what happened to the Kurds. The Sunni's, Shiites, Kurds have been fighting amongst themselves forever. We weren't so worried about Saddam's atrocities when we backed them against Iran. There was no war when he used chemical weapons (that he got from us) against his own people. This is a red herring that people use to justify the war.
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
5th...at the onset of our Afghanistan campaign many Al Qaeda operatives fled country. A few found haven in Iraq through Sadaam and his ISS. Add the FACT he paid the families of suicide bombers large sums of money for their suicide attacks against western countries.
The majority of Al Queda fled to Pakistan (our ally). We never went in there to get them. Saudi Arabia is the world's largest terrorist produceer, and it's Royal family are Bush's most generous financial supporters. And, Saddam did not pay anybody to attack the US. In fact, there has not been any Iraqi terrorist to attack the US... EVER!!!
If you're referring to suicide bombers in Israel, which is western only by ideology, not geography, we have ignored the Palestinians, who are the most significant terrorists in Israel. In fact, our administration consistently has persuaded Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians. Israel has given land to these terrorists and received praise and funding from the US for their diplomacy. In fact, after the war started and Iraq launched missiles against Israel, it was the uS who persuaded Israel not to respond.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
6th. The president gave Sadaam 6 month to comply and with the resolutions and give the inspectors complete access to his facilities as required under his resolutions. He refused all of this. Sadaam could have prevented this by just saying here look....He was basically under house arrest to the U.N. yet when the "police" showed up to perform their legal searches, he denied them.
So what??? The disobedience of a jerk does not justify this war. We had plenty of intel that showed that the US was in no imminent danger of attack from Iraq. If we were going to attack every nation with a disobedient leader then we'd have our hands full with N. Korea, Iran, Syria, Cuba, China, etc. etc. etc. And I forgot, we'd have to go to war with ourselves because the US has ignored UN mandates.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Again, convincing yourself that you are with the "good guys" allows you to justify the death, r-ape, torture of people including women and children. There is no morality in war. The winner of a war is going to be the most immoral, the most brutal, the most devastating party. Does it really matter if a person is beheaded or blown up? Which would you rather suffer? I would argue that Al Queda, by attacking the World Trade Center on a September morning was targeting adults, and probably more men than women. We drop bombs in residential areas of Iraq. This is where the war is being fought. Our enemy hides amongst civilians and we have no problem going in and dessimating the area. Our soldiers have been convicted of crimes while being there, including r-ape, murder and torture. There is no morality in this chaos. Let's not pull the moral wool over our eyes.... but maybe your thinking gives you the comfort of "righteousness". Step out of your comfort zone and try to see things objectively.
Crimzy, that's just not accurate. So Al Qaeda was targetting men while we target women and children? Come on.
I'll agree that 60 years ago warfare was fought much as you describe it. In WW2 civilians were seen as resources and viable targets. Cities were carpet bombed.
We do not fight like that today. If we did cities like Baghdad and Fallujah would be piling, smoking ruins with no inhabitants. We could make every city in Iraq look like post war Berlin or Stalingrad if we wanted to.
And, of course, let's not forget we help rebuild what is destroyed. I didn't notice any Al Qaeda over here helping to rebuild after 9-11.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
... We are not building a democracy, we are destroying a nation...
For the 6th time on this thread: Democracy is working in much of Iraq today.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
OK. Based on these statements, the purpose of the invasion on Iraq (i.e The War), was to take Sadaam out of power. We did that. So why are we continuing with this war 2 - 3 years after that happened? That's the issue now. We accomplished what our initial intentions were for this war. Now all we're doing is fighting tribal factions and trying to make peace and order in a country that will never accept it.

Furthermore what we are doing in Iraq is exactly what we would be doing in Dafur. Trying to make peace between tribal factions that will never accept it...as you just said. Sadaam was global threat and violator of U.N. law. Sadaam is gone, so you believe we should just pull out and leave the country in the state it was in after we removed sadaam, with no government, or economy to speak of.....Your concern for the Iraqi citizens is just stifling (sarcasm in case you missed it)

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by MSGMAC47
...
I respect everyone's opinion. I serve to make sure all of you have the right to voice it, good or bad. I just wanted to say that I am willing to go each time I am told to do so. Its funny how everyone was so patriotic before and when the war started to turn around and shout that it’s wrong now. It’s war. Lives are lost. To say they were lost for nothing is a slap in our (soldiers) face. But for us, we make sure you have that right to say it. Thank you goes to those who support us. For those that don’t, you are welcome for the right not to. Take care.
Thanks for your service. I'm too old and out of shape to fight with ya, but I'm trying my best to get a job where I can help you out.
Until then, I and many others will continue to shout the truth from the rooftops. I hope in some small way our support does make a difference and does matter.
Safe Journey. And thank you again.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by crimzy
So what??? The disobedience of a jerk does not justify this war. We had plenty of intel that showed that the US was in no imminent danger of attack from Iraq. If we were going to attack every nation with a disobedient leader then we'd have our hands full with N. Korea, Iran, Syria, Cuba, China, etc. etc. etc. And I forgot, we'd have to go to war with ourselves because the US has ignored UN mandates.

Crimzy, as usual you address one point to justify your view. Address the entire scenario....and see if you can justify Sadaam and what he was doing.
N. Korea does not harbor terrorists.
Cuba does not violate arms laws and harbor terroists
China---same as above.
Iran---Just became a topic the last 4 years...we gave Sadaam 11 or so years to comply, Iran should receive the same time frame.
Syria....what have they done wrong latelt?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
...the only way to end the radical Islamists movement is to do it diplomatically, because they will fight us forever.. ....
How do you negotiate with Al Qaeda?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
OK. Based on these statements, the purpose of the invasion on Iraq (i.e The War), was to take Sadaam out of power. We did that. So why are we continuing with this war 2 - 3 years after that happened? ...
Because Al Qaeda is there. We are fighting Al Qaeda.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Furthermore what we are doing in Iraq is exactly what we would be doing in Dafur. Trying to make peace between tribal factions that will never accept it...as you just said. Sadaam was global threat and violator of U.N. law. Sadaam is gone, so you believe we should just pull out and leave the country in the state it was in after we removed sadaam, with no government, or economy to speak of.....Your concern for the Iraqi citizens is just stifling (sarcasm in case you missed it)

Uh, your right. I could care less about the people in that country. I don't live there, plan on going there, and have nothing in common with their issues or beliefs. The US shouldn't be the keepers and babysitters of the world. We have our own issues to deal with in this country. Why should my tax dollars go to help some person that would NEVER do the same for me?