Why, Lfs, Why!

[azaintcold]

This is my first post here at SWF. I would like to begin by saying that there are a lot of educated individuals here, and for this reason, I'm here posting today. I have just started my first salt water tank recently and I am currently in the middle of the cycle. I started off by throwing a peeled shrimp in there etc. I have been reading, reading, reading, bought a few books and have a good understanding of things. Unfortunately for me, I took advice from my LFS before a good chunk of research.
Bad advice starts as follows:
1. I specifically ask if it is a good idea to use RO/DI water. He says "no use tap w/ treatment."
2. He has no idea about subtrate. I now have a mix of small grade crushed coral and some live sand.
3. All i have is base rock, no live rock now.
4. He gave me the wrong size ehiem wet dry, not enough filtration.
Since reading advice here, I have now invested in a reef keeper ro/di, and should be here Friday. I have already set up storage w/ an auto top off system, and will be doing some large water changes to get rid of as much tap as possible.
My biggest concerns I want addressed now are as follows:
1.Is a mix of CC and LS doable?
2. I intend on doing fish only, w/o LR. . Is this going to be possible with my set up? If not what should I do?
3. Are water changes during the cycle a good idea or bad idea? I understand all about the water changes after the cycle but this par was a blur.
4. Would it be wise to replace some of the base rock (150lb worth) with live rock to make it live, even though my lighting is the typical lighting that came with the tank stand combo?
5. My filter is the wrong size. When I change it out to the bigger one with more flow( which is being shipped right now), I would assume i would put the old media into the new one to try to keep the biological filtration as close to it is currently. Any thing else?
Thanks for your time in advance.

P.S. no fish or inverts yet so i want this settle now rather than later.

 

[threed240]

Originally Posted by azaintcold
4. Would it be wise to replace some of the base rock (150lb worth) with live rock to make it live, even though my lighting is the typical lighting that came with the tank stand combo?
You could add some live rock and seed the base rock. Or do a little trading.

 

[tacoma38]

Just read alot on here.U r wanting to know alot and most is on here.Look at the treads at the bottom of treads u r reading they r most helpful,then come back and as a little at a time.U r asking to much,i find if u ask to much noone will help.Good luck.Dont trust fish store most of them beep beep dont work there long enough to learn whats up.

 

[azaintcold]

Thanks for the timely reply, and I hear what your saying about too much. Just trying to do things right.
To narrow the most important things down:
1.Is a mix of CC and LS doable? Should I take care of it like regular CC?
2. Are water changes during the cycle a good idea or bad idea?

 

[seasalt101]

cc and ls is doable cc will stay on top, water change 10-15% after cycle is complete

 

[chuckcac]

***) hey there! Welcome to the boards... hopefully i can help to answer SOME of your questions...
1. CC & LS as a combo - i've read that some people have had luck with it, but most say this becomes a probelm with harboring nitrates -

2. Possible, yes - but eventually your 'base rock' will become live - the LS you have will 'seed' it to make it LR - this does take time though. :thinking:
3.Water changes during the cycle - you will find diffrent opinions all over the site... most reccomend doing a change if the ammonia reache 1.0 - Bang Guy has a thread on here somewhere for his method of cycling his tank(s) it looks like a really smart well conceived method - try to find that...

4.You dont need special lighting for LR - regular lights are fine... if you intend to house corals you would need to upgrade. if you replace some of the base rock with LR it will also help to 'seed' your base rock and make it 'live' eventually.

5. dont know much about your filter... sorry

things that may help others offer advice -
tank size and specific water parameters...

again... Welcome! ***)

 

[maddesthatter]

2. I intend on doing fish only, w/o LR. . Is this going to be possible with my set up? If not what should I do?
I would suggest using LR... from all the posts Ive read its good to have little ins and outs and hiding spots for your fish in case of any territorial disputes and also to help with the filtration.
3. Are water changes during the cycle a good idea or bad idea? I understand all about the water changes after the cycle but this par was a blur.
From what Ive read you should NOT do water changes during the cycling period, but i could be wrong. But thats what ive read from several responses on here.
4. Would it be wise to replace some of the base rock (150lb worth) with live rock to make it live, even though my lighting is the typical lighting that came with the tank stand combo?
If you put some LR into your tank with your BR it should actually seed your BR and make it into LR.
5. My filter is the wrong size. When I change it out to the bigger one with more flow( which is being shipped right now), I would assume i would put the old media into the new one to try to keep the biological filtration as close to it is currently. Any thing else?
I assume if the media is right for your new filter I would keep it just so you have all the good bacteria around.
Dont let some of these people say youre asking too much thats what this site is for...for questions and answers and to better everyones knowledge. but yeah do look around and try the search forum thread and type in what youre lookin for, might find similar posts from before.

 

[promisetbg]

Originally Posted by azaintcold
My biggest concerns I want addressed now are as follows:
1.Is a mix of CC and LS doable?
2. I intend on doing fish only, w/o LR. . Is this going to be possible with my set up? If not what should I do?
3. Are water changes during the cycle a good idea or bad idea? I understand all about the water changes after the cycle but this par was a blur.
4. Would it be wise to replace some of the base rock (150lb worth) with live rock to make it live, even though my lighting is the typical lighting that came with the tank stand combo?
5. My filter is the wrong size. When I change it out to the bigger one with more flow( which is being shipped right now), I would assume i would put the old media into the new one to try to keep the biological filtration as close to it is currently. Any thing else?
Thanks for your time in advance.

P.S. no fish or inverts yet so i want this settle now rather than later.
1.It is going to be difficult to keep nitrates in check with a mix of CC & sand. You won't be able to clean the CC and if it was all sand..you would'nt want to clean it. Having a mix is bad....best advice is to take it out and start over with one or the other. Sand is best IMO.
2. I would definately recommend some LR for filtration, a sump, and a return pump. Put a protein skimmer in the sump, it is one of the most important pieces of equipment you can buy.
3. Do not do wc's during the cycle, it will only prolong it.
4.answered that already.
5. If you are insistent on the Eheim, I don't think it matters whether or not you use the same media...there is no healthy bacteria in your tank until you get live sand & live rock.

 

[tacoma38]

lr is a filter,people never seem to understand that.Its a must have,I think.

 

[promisetbg]

There is no substitute for good live rock with lots of life & critters. It is a stretch to assume that some bagged live sand is going to make a pile of dead rock alive. Perhaps with some bacteria, but not live in the sense of all the beneficial infauna that comes in with true live sand from the ocean{the bagged kind only has some bacteria in it} and good live rock that has been cured.

 

[chuckcac]

Originally Posted by promisetbg
...there is no healthy bacteria in your tank until you get live sand & live rock.
nitrifying bacteria builds up in filter media (bio balls / bio media etc)- ...otherwise how could a fish only tank survive? :thinking:
Live rock & live sand provide additional surface area for the build-up of this bacteria

for example;
QT's should have NO substrate & NO LR - "healthy bacteria" can be introduced into the QT with filter media that has been soaked in the DT fro 24-48hrs- this filter media gets added to the QT to provide those "healthy bacteria" to break down the wastes of the QT inhabitants...

 

[promisetbg]

Yes, but you are talking about an established tank. This tank is cycling..I don't think it really matters either way.

 

[andy51632]

CC and LS mix is crazy. If you go with CC you have to vacuum it w/ every water change which some people do not like. By adding livesand on it you cannot aggressively vacuum the CC like it needs because you will suck up most of your livesand and beneficial critters. This will cause debris to get stuck in the CC and nitrates will build up.
Solution: If you have no fish and just baserock, IMO I would remove as much as the CC as possible. Replace with a argonite sand 1/2" at time until I had about a 1 and half inch depth. Do a water change once completed. Then wait a week for things to settle down. Do a test for sg, ph, alk, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Post them on this site in the New hobbist forumn. As soon as your ammonia and nitrites are 0 go to the LFS and get some live sand and a nice piece of fully cured liverock. Keep both of them wet on the way home and stick them in your tank. Check your tests every other day for a week watch for ammonia spike. If it spikes wait until it cycles out. If it does not you are good to go. Buy fish one at a time and I would recommend a QT tank. Keep a eye on your parameters.
Your filter will be alright for a while if you are going with a fish only system. Just be patient and add fish slowly(1 a month). If you can keep your nitrates below 10 you can add some cleaning crew(snails, hermits)your tank will look better It will take a while for all your baserock to get seeded that is why I said buy a small fully cured rock to help it seed quicker. With patience and time your lr will be your best filter. Make sure you get a lot of water movement in and aroun your lr so it has a lot of water moving through it to filter.
Water changes, u should if your ammonia get above 1. Otherwise u do not have too while cycling. I still do a 10% wc every week through cycle.

 

[azaintcold]

It will take a while for all your baserock to get seeded that is why I said buy a small fully cured rock to help it seed quicker. With patience and time your lr will be your best filter. Make sure you get a lot of water movement in and aroun your lr so it has a lot of water moving through it to filter.
Water changes, u should if your ammonia get above 1. Otherwise u do not have too while cycling. I still do a 10% wc every week through cycle.
Thanks a bunch. I have plenty of filtration, the tank size is 150 gallon, and i have more than 2000gph movement so thats no worry. As far as the live rock to seed the dead rock goes, i have about 150 lbs of base rock. Could I get away with replacing 30lbs of that with live rock? Or would i need more.

 

[chuckcac]

i actually have plans to make 100lbs of DIY base rock & buy one 20lb uncured live rock piece to both seed the DIY base rock & cycle my new 55...
(i love the DIY projects)

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by azaintcold
Thanks for the timely reply, and I hear what your saying about too much. Just trying to do things right.
To narrow the most important things down:
1.Is a mix of CC and LS doable? Should I take care of it like regular CC?
2. Are water changes during the cycle a good idea or bad idea?

You can not mix the two substrates. It will never work, I am afraid. The sand will sink to the bottom. It can work with crushed coral...but it requires more care, IMO. Now is the time to change it, if you don't want to go with crushed coral.
There is no issue only having base rock. Add LR to it and over time it will work out.
There are different opinions on water changes. Some argue to push as hard as possible. But if you had LR, then you may not want to go too high for fear that you would really kill off EVERY critter (apart from bacteria for the most part) in your rock. So in LR cycled tanks, water changes may be done to keep things under control. In non-LR cycled systems, then it may not be all that critical, IMO.
You may not want me to say it but on a tank that size I would recommend two smaller filters...or at least two filters of this size, because the extra water movement won't hurt and you don't have to hope that things stay suspended long enough to make it to your filter. But you will at least need numerous powerheads in this tank to move water around.

 

[outatime97]

Just add the 30 lbs of rock to what you have it will be good. Where is your lfs? I only ask because the only knowledgable ones here I have been into are in the east valley (kinda tough for us west valley people). Good luck and trust the people on these boards, they have helped me alot.

 

[azaintcold]

Originally Posted by Outatime97
Just add the 30 lbs of rock to what you have it will be good. Where is your lfs? I only ask because the only knowledgable ones here I have been into are in the east valley (kinda tough for us west valley people). Good luck and trust the people on these boards, they have helped me alot.
I did the Ocean Floor on thomas off the I-17. Nice store, bad advice. I'm going to try the one on 11th st and Bell. I've heard good things. Plus they have LR for $4.XXor so a LB.
** As to address the two filters, I think I'll be fine with the one big wet dry, its rated for 160 gallons, and i have 3 big powerheads, adding protien skimmer this week and soon to be a big flow chiller. If i have troubles I'll put one on the other side.
I'm going to break down the tank this weekend and screen out the CC and do a 2 inch sand bed. Also I'm going to start a new cycle with my new RO/DI salt water w/ the reefkeeper system I ordered. Do it right the first time instead of dealing with a headache later.

 

[ophiura]

Sorry, when I read filters I thought cannister or HOB...not wet dry. You definitely don't need two wet/dry filters