Why use a sump

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saxman

Guest
Yeppers...13 setups...it takes a full hour to feed all of our Scorpaeniformes, and that leaves 3 setups that get fed daily (SH and anthias).
I think we need a "tank slave" or two...
 
S

saxman

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump/20#post_3397256
Oh, I thought tank slaves were called Renee!!!
Actually, our roles have swapped a bit...I'm still the 'lead' tank designer/plumber and Renee is still the "nutrition/treatment geek", but I've taken on some of the stick feeding since it has become so "involved". It's a chore, but also kinda fun as the fish now see me in a different light instead of "the guy who always sticks his hand in the tank and messes with stuff".
I actually tried to get one of the boys to come over and do some WC's and cleaning, but he didn't go for it...even for pay! (I guess he's not so dumb!)
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member

Okay gonna try to be simple here, not a hard thing as I am a simple minded person. The problem with the biomedia is that they are perfect traps for detritus due to their physical characteristics. Because of this the detritus accumulation accelerates the bio filtering capability of the system around the media. As this capability accelerates, read more nitrifying bacteria here, the production of nitrates is increased over time or as the bacteria colony grows to deal with the increase in available ammonia and nitrites. So the real problem with them becomming a "nitrate factory" is in the amount of detritus that accumulates.
So..............there in lies the need to restructure the process by either cleaning off the detritus but not the bacteria, or to aggressively prefilter the water being introduced to the media so that the detritus is removed from the system prior to being broken down into ammonia.

I will say again that biomedia is very effective in doing what it was designed to do and that is house nitrifying bacteria in an aerobic environment for the breakdwon of ammonia and nitrites. However their is the added maintenance that is needed to keep the detritus from accumulating on them, causing more protein breakdown, the increase in nitrifying bacteria to deal with it, and the increase in production of nitrates.
They do have an added benefit that some don't realize in that they are the perfect vehicle to increase oxygenation of the water.

Hope that helps a bit.

Ok I see, your concepts is sound in theory. If the systems bacteria are out of balance then you can make more nitrate then can be removed. In all the tanks that I set up there would be no difference whether I used bio-balls or not because all waste I put in is exported out by the filter. So whether the detritus builds up on the balls or the sand it makes no difference to me. Now if your system bio-filter does not have the capacity that my filter does then nitrate will build up faster then it is exported out. If in your system there is no place the detritus builds up other then the bio-balls then in theory removing them would fix the imbalance. I personally don't believe such a tank exists and that if the detritus is not on the balls it is somewhere else throwing the balance off.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Okay but you are differentiating between a system and a part of the system. Bioballs used in conjunction with other filtering techniques are a system to remove built up nutrient from the aquarium. Bioballs not used in a system but the nutrient export still equal to their use should result in the same nutrient export. Things like skimmers, macro algae, filter floss or pads, carbon dosingcannot export nutrients in and or themselves. There needs to be a total system with the ability to export the nutrients and potential nutrients to avoid the buildup of nitrate. No?
 
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saxman

Guest
I also think that the fact that only AEROBIC bacteria colonizes the bioballs, and detritus or no, that stops the cycle at NO3, period. LR has a certain amount of ANAEROBIC bacteria deep within the rock, which DOES process NO3. To be honest, the BEST thing is to keep the NH3 OUT of the nitrogen cycle in the first place, which is where skimmers, macro, etc. comes in.
Macro algae will feed on NO3 if that's all there is, but it will use NH3 first, so with macro, it's a win-win situation. Nutrient export is accomplished via pruning the macro.
As Henry said, so far, no single part of a system is perfect, which is why we still need WC's...how much and how often depends upon the efficiency of the system in question.
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member

Okay but you are differentiating between a system and a part of the system. Bioballs used in conjunction with other filtering techniques are a system to remove built up nutrient from the aquarium. Bioballs not used in a system but the nutrient export still equal to their use should result in the same nutrient export. Things like skimmers, macro algae, filter floss or pads, carbon dosingcannot export nutrients in and or themselves. There needs to be a total system with the ability to export the nutrients and potential nutrients to avoid the buildup of nitrate. No?
Yes, yes, and yes!
Let me not be misunderstood. I don't use or like bio-balls either I just would like people to explain to others that the bio-balls are not the source of the waste is in the system. They are in essence like a sponge filter holing on to waste till you clean it off. Like you have said, if waste is allowed to travel to other filters then their removed, this is why their like a trap. We must make some distinction for those that have tanks with no other filter then LR and LS and not arbitrary blame bio-balls and have people misunderstand.
I really think that if someone has bio-balls and a nitrate problem they either don't clean the bio-balls or they feed the system to much. Me being lazy I cut back on feeding to the point I don't really feed so that I don't have to clean anything and so no prob with bio-balls...
 
kiefers

kiefers

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump/20#post_3397446
Okay but you are differentiating between a system and a part of the system. Bioballs used in conjunction with other filtering techniques are a system to remove built up nutrient from the aquarium. Bioballs not used in a system but the nutrient export still equal to their use should result in the same nutrient export. Things like skimmers, macro algae, filter floss or pads, carbon dosingcannot export nutrients in and or themselves. There needs to be a total system with the ability to export the nutrients and potential nutrients to avoid the buildup of nitrate. No?
chineese........ wow.... it's late..........
 
lorenzoaguilar2

lorenzoaguilar2

New Member
Is it possible to run a large reef aquarium without a sump? I travel a lot for business and would like to get rid of the sump attached to my 90-gallon reef aquarium. The external overflow is always losing suction and the sump is flooding onto the floor. This worries me while I’m away. Can I do without it?
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cherry veneer, homeless shelter for women, Fort Lauderdale movers
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Depends on what equipment and filtration is located in your sump. Whatever is there will need to be replaced in the tank to maintain the levels you currently have with the sump. Also because of the reduction in water volume you may need to increase your water changes if the tank begins to show an increase in chemistry imbalance.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I have run bio balls in my tank for 10 years cleaned them once yes once in all that time. Let’s talk about detritus. Where do we find most of it? Is it not found on our substrata? Hence the need for a CUC if that is the case then what ever detritus entering our sump and accumulating on our bio balls would have to enter through our overflows. Simple and what is the method most used in sumps is having the water enter the sump by passing over drip tray this drip tray either has an egg crate configuration or just a series of holes drilled in the bottom. Blue while filter media is places indie the drip tray and THIS is what traps the detritus that enters through the overflows, the detritus never comes in contact with the bio balls. The hobbyist just adds cleaning and changing the blue white filter material to their regular maintenance
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump/20#post_3398318
I have run bio balls in my tank for 10 years cleaned them once yes once in all that time. Let’s talk about detritus. Where do we find most of it? Is it not found on our substrata? Hence the need for a CUC if that is the case then what ever detritus entering our sump and accumulating on our bio balls would have to enter through our overflows. Simple and what is the method most used in sumps is having the water enter the sump by passing over drip tray this drip tray either has an egg crate configuration or just a series of holes drilled in the bottom. Blue while filter media is places indie the drip tray and THIS is what traps the detritus that enters through the overflows, the detritus never comes in contact with the bio balls. The hobbyist just adds cleaning and changing the blue white filter material to their regular maintenance
That's a mightly long time to go in between cleaning the balls Joe. I can only imagine the bacteria that those things must harbor by now.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzoaguilar2 http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump/20#post_3398280
Is it possible to run a large reef aquarium without a sump? I travel a lot for business and would like to get rid of the sump attached to my 90-gallon reef aquarium. The external overflow is always losing suction and the sump is flooding onto the floor. This worries me while I’m away. Can I do without it?
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cherry veneer, homeless shelter for women, Fort Lauderdale movers
Welcome to the site:
I use ther CPR overflow with the lifter pump. Maybe that can help your situation. You can always set up a canister filter and turn off the sump while you are out of town, and be sure to run a bubble line to keep the sump water churned up and healthy. I ran my 90g on canisters for many years but I also had nitrates, I love my sump system much more. Now I run the sump, skimmer and an Aquaripure nitrate filter.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump/20#post_3398318
I have run bio balls in my tank for 10 years cleaned them once yes once in all that time. Let’s talk about detritus. Where do we find most of it? Is it not found on our substrata? Hence the need for a CUC if that is the case then what ever detritus entering our sump and accumulating on our bio balls would have to enter through our overflows. Simple and what is the method most used in sumps is having the water enter the sump by passing over drip tray this drip tray either has an egg crate configuration or just a series of holes drilled in the bottom. Blue while filter media is places indie the drip tray and THIS is what traps the detritus that enters through the overflows, the detritus never comes in contact with the bio balls. The hobbyist just adds cleaning and changing the blue white filter material to their regular maintenance
So if I understand you....you are saying to prefilter the water leading to the sump and keep that filter material removed and cleaned....doing this will prevent detritus from ever getting on the bioballs???
The entire purpose of the bio ball is to house bacteria that breaks down, ammonia into nitrites, and also enough of other bacteria to break down nitrites into nitrates...so the balls would still be producing nitrates.
Sooo...without detritus you never rinse the bioballs, but just do water changes (or vodka dose) to remove nitrates, and take care of the white and blue filter pads that trap detritus.
Oh and about the filter pads.....Isn't that what a filter sock is for?
 
S

saxman

Guest
Correct Flower...the filter sock replaces the filter pad. All you need to do is have a few filter sox and rotate them on a weekly basis. When you add the last one to the system, take the rest, turn them inside out and wash them in the washer with no detergent, then let them air dry. If you like them nice and white, you can add a bit of bleach to the washer (personally, I don't bother with that).
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump/20#post_3398397
Correct Flower...the filter sock replaces the filter pad. All you need to do is have a few filter sox and rotate them on a weekly basis. When you add the last one to the system, take the rest, turn them inside out and wash them in the washer with no detergent, then let them air dry. If you like them nice and white, you can add a bit of bleach to the washer (personally, I don't bother with that).
Greg how goes it my brother? People don’t seem to understand bio balls are just a multi-faceted media for bacteria to colonize on nothing more nothing less
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
Thanks for chiming in here Joe and reminding us what bio-balls are used for, Ping-Pong
PS: Filter socks :laughing:
 
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