Worried about noise if I make a sump

[dpeter51]

I have been thinking about setting up a sump with a 20 gallon tank since before I set up my DT. I have a few fish now and the tank is doing fine, and I like how it is very quiet. But nitrates are a little high and it would be nice to move the heater and skimmer out of the DT, so I'm still looking at a sump/refugium.
I'm concerned by all the threads I've seen with people complaining that their overflow makes toilet sounds, loud sucking, gurgling, etc, etc...so I'm wondering what is recommended for my situation.
I have a 50-gallon acrylic with a little 2" x 2" overflow built into one corner. It has a 1" diameter bulkhead at the bottom with a hose barb connection on the outside. Up until this point I've just kept the water level below the teeth at the top of the overflow.
So this little 2" x 2" overflow is too small to fit a standpipe, I think, and I don't know how I'd get one in there anyway. Is there any other good way to keep the noise down, like using a lot of filter floss or foam or something?
Here's a drawing of the tank setup (it's to scale):

 

[earlybird]

My sump is quiet. I have an overflow box and spa hose with no standpipe. All I hear is a slight hum from my pumps and the air from the skimmer's air diffuser.

 

[dpeter51]

That sounds ideal. Is your setup the same as mine--similar dimensions and such?

 

[wattsupdoc]

Any way to get to the back of the tank and drill another hole up high?

 

[dpeter51]

Sure, if I drained it quite a bit. What would that be for--a second outflow inside the overflow chamber or do you mean somewhere else in the tank as a return, or...?
Sorry I'm a little new; I've read some of your posts and you obviously are very experienced.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Well, you could do whats called a Hermie OF. Which requires 2 drains. The second higher one is an emergency drain. The first one is throttled back so it's signicantly under water, not allowing any air in the line. Noise is greatly reduced. You wouldn'rt have to put anything in the box then. But you might get a waterfal noise if you cant get the height inside the OF box up high enough without draining into the E.Drain.

 

[dpeter51]

Sounds good Doc. What's the purpose of the two outlets on the green line (primary)--noise? Does the one need to be at the level of the water as shown?

 

[wattsupdoc]

The T is something I saw for noise, You can put both just below the water level, but the ED would make noise and alert you if it should start to flow water. If it were above the surface. Indicating a problem.

 

[dpeter51]

Thanks for the info Doc. I already have the tank and the baffles are cut out. I'm trying to decide what pump to use. My output from the DT is a 1" ID spa hose. I currently have two Koralia 2 powerheads running in the DT (each flows 600 gph) and that seems to be enough flow around the DT. I have a Magnum 350 HOT filter but I never turn it on because the flow is just crazy - I feel sorry for the fish having to fight the turbulence. I'm planning to use a long pipe with a lot of little holes in it to disperse the flow from the sump into the DT, instead of the typical fan-jet type attachment that is sold at my LFS.
As I said, I'm worried about too much turbulence in my DT, which is 20T x 15D x 36W. I'm guessing a Mag 5 will be about right, but I don't want to make the mistake of going with too little flow either.
Below is a drawing of my plan for the sump. I hope the intake part isn't confusing. There are two chambers as you are looking into the picture. The water flows from the DT into a 4x4 tower with live rock rubble to absorb the bubbles, and out through little holes near the bottom. Got this idea from Melev's reef. The rest of the area in that first four inches of tank width is for my skimmer, it's an AquaC Remora. The water flows from that chamber over a baffle into the refugium area.
Any recommendations on pump size, and also, any changes you would make to the layout of the sump? Thanks!!

 

[mojo46825]

I big factor to is that people run a large return pump as well. Alot of people are trying to get alot of flow from there retrun pump rather than from power heads. this cause a large inrush of water through there flex hose that is looped around. It fills so far then it empties into the sump. Like a toilet flush. A good average for your return pump is 6 to 10x your display tank. Like for example. I am runnig a 75gallon and I am using a mag 7. I could use a mag 9.5 but running the mag 7 allows the water a little more time if my refugium. And it makes less noise as well. Less splashing around. Letting my filter do its work. Ten I run twoHydor korilias for more water flow in the tank. Good luck.

 

[dpeter51]

So maybe I don't need the whole 15-20x turnover to be through the sump, just part of it...I think. I guess if I do a smaller pump the flow will be slower through the refugium and microbubbles will be less of a problem.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I have a 29 set up very similar to the one you are doing. However, no rubble, instead I have baffles, I get no bubbles in the fuge. My other fuge on the same DT is an ecosystem with the slots cut out in the single baffle. This compartment is full of rubble, LOTS about 15 lbs just in that one compartment. It does help with the bubbles, but not much. I still get bubbles in my fuge. Also, these are solely from the drain in that compartment, no skimmer in it. So, if you want to eliminate bubbles in the fuge, which IMO is a good thing to do, then the rubble /bubble tower ain't going to cut it. also, flowing over the top baffle into the fuge is IMO not a very efficient way of directing the flow through the macro algae. A large percentage of the flow just moves along the top. Sure there will be fallout as it flows through, but there will be a higher percentage of water that doesn't flow through the macros. You're better off IMO, to start the flow from just a bit above the SB and let water flow upward through the fuge.
Your Dt is somewhere around 47 gal. So a mag 5 WITH NO HEAD LOSS gives you 10x flow. However, your going to have head loss, so your likely to only get 300ish gph (just slightly under it)outta it. A mag 7 will get you around 400ish, just a tad over.IMO, I'd do the mag 7.
The fish will adjust to the flow, actually, they have already adjusted to what is a much slower flow than they are used to. Many reefs have very strong currents on them. MUCH MORE than what you are producing in that 47. IMO, let 'em adjust and keep the flow.

 

[dpeter51]

Cool, thanks! Actually I did just what you're saying about having the flow go into the refugium near the bottom. After I drew that picture, I had the idea to drill a bunch of holes near the bottom of the baffle because I had read the same thing you are saying somewhere else.
I'll go ahead and get the Mag 7 and use a ball valve to re-direct excess into the return area if I don't like how the flow looks. But I get your point about the natural currents being stronger than what I have in my tank. One thing I'm taking into consideration is that my substrate is very fine and I'd prefer not to create bare spots on the bottom of the DT by blowing it around too much.
One more question...I drilled those holes in the refugium baffle 5 inches above the bottom (the baffle is 15 inches tall) to allow for up to a 4 inch DSB. Is there any preferred depth for one of these? Maybe a thinner DSB, like 2.5 inches, would still work and leave more open space for macro algae to grow? Not sure what the tradeoff is there.

 

[wattsupdoc]

The sands granular size determines the necessary depth of NNR SB. Course aragonite would need to be 4 to 6 inches deep. See there that 4 is the minimum. Whereas sugar sized sand can be as shallow as 2in. Now then keep in mind that just because it's 2" deep and sugar sized, doesn't necessarily guarantee it will reduce nitrates. Likewise with course aragonite. doing 3 and 5 in respectively will pretty well guarantee you have an anaerobic zone. But you'll also need to have some sand stirrers(NOT sifters) for it to function. You can stir it some yourself, but you need to be careful. Seeding the sand with REAL live sand, not just bacteriological live sand, is the best way.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11...ot_parent_id=7

 

[dpeter51]

Thanks for the link Doc. Sounds like about 4 inches would be a good way to go then. I would think even non-live sand becomes live eventually...would it take a really long time?
By the way I've been looking for mag pumps this weekend locally, only found mag 3s in a couple of stores, but I got talked into a Rio 3100 by an enthusiastic shop owner. He runs most of his tanks with them and has never had a problem with them in the 2-3 years he's had them. Also he claimed they make a lot less heat than the mag's, which is a big deal for me as our indoor temp is about 76 degrees (trying to keep the electric bill down!). I've read some stories about Rio's crapping out though...do you have any experience with them?

 

[dpeter51]

Anybody that can say if the Rio 3100 will last a while? It was about $20 cheaper than a Mag 7, which I finally found a copy of today at an LFS I don't usually frequent.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I have ran a rio 2500 for two years now, with NO PROBLEMS.

Now this may not be the case for yours? I also have ran a mag 7 for 2 years now with NO PROBLEMS.

Personally I prefer the mag over the rio.

 

[dpeter51]

I'm trying to get the sump running today.
The 3100 is more than my overflow can handle. The tank would have overflowed if I handn't turned off the pump, and that is using a ball valve cocked at 45 degrees so most of the water is cycling in the return area of the sump. I think I need a smaller pump, and maybe I need to install that second bulkhead you mentioned, if only to help the flow not to mention cut the toilet noise (yup, I got gurgling!)
I also can't believe the 3100 is giving the correct amount of flow, especially since 100% of it is going through the refugium--that is a massive jet of water coming out of there! Won't that flow be too powerful for macro algae?
So, separate issue but I'm ticked...when I first bought the pump I ran it for literally less than two minutes to check it out, and I decided I wasn't happy with the amount of flow. So I took it back to swap for the 2100. The anal orifice that was so enthusiastic about it two weeks ago when he wanted my cash won't take it back now "because I turned it on".

After going back and forth for a couple minutes, I asked once more if he would take the pump back and politely warned him that I might not shop there anymore if he wouldn't, and he threw up his hands and exclaimed "That's ok!" Yeah buddy. With that attitude I don't think you'll be in business for long.