Yellow Tang goes down in flames

solecraft

New Member
Good morning!
So I woke up this morning and turned the tank light on to find my yellow tang attempting to bury himself in the sand. He then proceeded to flip out and swim himself into the side of the tank before convulsing at the bottom of the tank right before dying.
My question is this: did I kill him somehow? Is this a normal death?! As you can probably tell, this is my first fish death experience. He spent his last couple days staring at his reflection in the side of the tank, apparently obsessed to the point that he would eat rarely, if at all.
 

hot883

Active Member
Give us some help here. List all other fish and occupants? Any discoloration or white spots. Anyothers acting weird? Size of tank, when purchased tang, water parameters. Sorry ,but needed info. Sorry for your loss.Barry
 

solecraft

New Member
Originally Posted by hot883
Give us some help here. List all other fish and occupants? Any discoloration or white spots. Anyothers acting weird? Size of tank, when purchased tang, water parameters. Sorry ,but needed info. Sorry for your loss.Barry
Ok not a problem lets see...i have 3 blue yellow tailed damsels, a bicolor goatfish, and a tomato clown. The clownfish has always just chilled in the corner, but i think thats a result of being bullied. The tang had a large darker spot right in the middle of his body this morning. I noticed it after he died. He has also had some red residue around his mouth. Im thinking hes been licking the algae off of the coral. Should he not have done that?
Its a 46 gallon tank, up about a month. I did a 20% change a week ago, and ran the tank about a week before we put any fish in. The tang was purchased about 2 weeks ago I believe. The pH has been running a bit high, but ive been using buffer the last week or so to get it back down.
 

crazyzeus1

Member
Are you saying that you filled the tank with water, ran it for one week, and then put fish in? If that's the case, you probably didn't cycle completely & maybe the fish died because of the cycling damage. Maybe I'm reading this wrong...and believe me, I'm no expert. Just a thought...
 

solecraft

New Member
Originally Posted by crazyzeus1
Are you saying that you filled the tank with water, ran it for one week, and then put fish in? If that's the case, you probably didn't cycle completely & maybe the fish died because of the cycling damage. Maybe I'm reading this wrong...and believe me, I'm no expert. Just a thought...

Ok now I feel like a moron for some reason. Did I miss a step? I've tested the water every few days and consulted with the aquarium store next to my apartment each step along the way. Did I so something incorrectly? I set up the aquarium, ran it for a week, brought a sample to the store to have them test it, and bought the damsels as testers. what am I missing? And can someone please explain the cycling process? I have a feeling i screwed something up with that, too.
Thanks!
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Well it sounds like you probably cycled the tank too fast. Although it is possible for a tank to cycle in a week this is unlikely. For the future reference it is better to wait an extra week just to be sure. The cycling process can be very different from person to person based on how much live rock or live sand you start with or what you use to start the cycle. I would imagine that the reason the tang died was stress related. Tangs do not do well without a lot os swimming room. From my experience yellow tangs get stressed very easily, even from fish that are much smaller then them. It sounds like your damsels are bullies, and if they picked on your clown they were probably stressing out your tang.
 

ophiura

Active Member
In order to really know how your cycling went, we need to know how you cycled it...live rock, dead shrimp??? The damsels are not "testers" in most cases they are what is used to cycle when described this way. Did you ever see an ammonia spike, nitrite spike...nitrates?
What is your pH? Alkalinity? DO NOT ADD ANY BUFFERS TO CONTROL PH UNTIL YOU GET AN ALKALINITY AND CALCIUM TEST. STOP THIS IMMEDIATELY!!!
Sorry to yell, but that is very important. Do not mess with pH until you know WHY or IF your pH is actually a problem. To do that you need an alkalinity and calcium test.
How long have you had this tang, and how did you acclimate it?
You have a LOT of fish in that tank for such a small and young tank. This is a bad way to start. Saltwater tanks are maturing for many months after they are set up, and tangs are among the worst choice for a very young tank. Most tangs in this situation, IMO, are doomed.
Sorry...gotta run for a moment...but that alkalinity and calcium reading is super important...also all filtration and circulation on the tank. Can you fill some of that in??
 

solecraft

New Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Well it sounds like you probably cycled the tank too fast. Although it is possible for a tank to cycle in a week this is unlikely. For the future reference it is better to wait an extra week just to be sure. The cycling process can be very different from person to person based on how much live rock or live sand you start with or what you use to start the cycle. I would imagine that the reason the tang died was stress related. Tangs do not do well without a lot os swimming room. From my experience yellow tangs get stressed very easily, even from fish that are much smaller then them. It sounds like your damsels are bullies, and if they picked on your clown they were probably stressing out your tang.

Theyre assholes.
Hey...I have some damsels available...free to a good home. Inquire within!
 

solecraft

New Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
In order to really know how your cycling went, we need to know how you cycled it...live rock, dead shrimp??? The damsels are not "testers" in most cases they are what is used to cycle when described this way. Did you ever see an ammonia spike, nitrite spike...nitrates?
I honestly dont know that I cycled it at all, judging from the replies on this thread. I relied on what the aquarium store employees have been telling me. bad move, I guess. Although they have seemed pretty knowledgable throughout.
What is your pH? Alkalinity? DO NOT ADD ANY BUFFERS TO CONTROL PH UNTIL YOU GET AN ALKALINITY AND CALCIUM TEST. STOP THIS IMMEDIATELY!!!
You got it.
Sorry to yell, but that is very important. Do not mess with pH until you know WHY or IF your pH is actually a problem. To do that you need an alkalinity and calcium test.
Ill take it today.
How long have you had this tang, and how did you acclimate it?
2 weeks. I acclimated it using the drip method in a 5 gallon bucket with the water from the store tank. The goatfish and the tang were acclimated together. I left them in the bucket to acclimate for ~45 mins, then put them in the tank. They seemed to be doing well up until a couple days ago, when the tang started acting weird. The goatfish is perfectly fine thus far.
You have a LOT of fish in that tank for such a small and young tank. This is a bad way to start. Saltwater tanks are maturing for many months after they are set up, and tangs are among the worst choice for a very young tank. Most tangs in this situation, IMO, are doomed.
Thats weird, again...the "professionals" at the aquarium store kept telling me how hardy the tangs were. 6 fish, 4 of which are smaller than 1", in a tank that big, is a lot of fish? Additionally, the tang was quite small.
Sorry...gotta run for a moment...but that alkalinity and calcium reading is super important...also all filtration and circulation on the tank. Can you fill some of that in??


This is all quite frustrating -- I have trouble getting definitive answers to a lot of my questions...when I go to the store, I find i frequently get different answers than when I come on here. I didnt get the impression that they were so heavily profit motivated in my dealings with them. There have been a couple times where theyve suggested much cheaper alternatives to my ideas, so I thought I could trust their judgement. Guess not!
In terms of filtration, I have a Prizm skimmer and a rotating filter thingie (I dont recall the name, but im sure you follow).
 

solecraft

New Member
One last thing -- I was cleaning the tank last night, and he was totally flipping out...could that have contributed as well? Im guessing that might be a possibility.
 

crazyzeus1

Member
When I first set up our tank, the LFS told me to remember this is a hobby, and you will get 10 different answers to the same question. That didn't give me much comfort...
But since I have been visiting this message board, I feel I am MUCH more in the know than many of my LFS employees. For example, the day after we got our Foxface & he was not doing well, they sent a guy over to try & get him out. We have 130lb of live rock, & the foxface kept hiding, so I told the guy to stop trying to catch him as not to stress him anymore. He suggested I put Kick Ich in the tank to prevent ich...just in case. I told him (from what I learned here on this site) that I didn't think it was very effective & that I didn't want to add anything to the main tank that wasn't absolutely necessary. He looked at me like I had my head on fire & said "Oh, so this isn't your first tank?"
Well, yes this is my FIRST tank EVER. I just got so much good info. here that I didn't take his word for it.
My feeling is that message boards like this are full of people who have tried all sorts of thigns & are willing to share their success/failure stories. The LFS employee may have only limited knowledge & experience, if any at all, with certain tank situations. Not to say that there aren't some VERY experienced LFS employees out there...but that has not been my experience for the most part.
And there are some LFS who really want to make a profit, or the employees really don't know their elbow from their a**hole when it comes to saltwater fish. If I have learned anything, it's to post my questions HERE before I buy any fish, then compare the loads of responses from this site to the advice from my LFS, and do my own research online as well. Takes more time, but I know that the LFS may not always know the answers and will give me their best guess, passing it off as "true knowledge".
Just my two cents...
You're doing the right thing visiting this site & asking questions!
 

aquapro_1

Member
Ph should be steady prior to loading the tank. I learned never talk to the LFS for advice. They only have 1 agenda, THE SALE!! I took my LFS to small claims because they sold me a brittle star that eat my new fish & 3 square back anthias that would never change as they claimed....I only do research on the net & if 2-3 articles repeat...I listen...
Tangs are very fragile to stress. But the fact you cycled a week....Bad news, you will lose everything in the near future (by next month). If you just want fish, use some live sand to help control levels and speed up the cycle. People say 6 weeks before. But I cycled 2 tanks & it took me 3 months for all levels to be constant.
 

oceanists

Active Member
OK For one you learned this ....... It is very hard to trust a LFS , they sell fish for a living with most of the time no regard to the fishes health .. i was told i could have a moorish idol in a 20 G Tank ............. However i knew this wasnt true i was just testing the store ................ anyway what your going to want to do and i know this sucks , but it has to be done ........
1. Take all of your fish back to the LFS for credit if they will do that , if not there are other LFS that will accept fish for credit. If you dont do this the most likely scenerio is your going to lose your fish and be left with nothing to show except a few damsels ...... and honestly who wants to be stuck with a damsel
2. IF you have LR and LS, GREAT! if not you need to get some , it is expensive but is really a must as it produces natural filteration. A general rule is 1.5 Lbs per gallon , but i have 40 lbs in a 55 and my setup is fine. Also mix LS and Aragonite sand and use that is you flooring
3. You can keep the water you have or you can just start fresh which i belive is the best way to go.
4. If you go fresh great your on the right track . fill the tank with Pre Mixed (24 hours) Salt Water with a power head running in it. Put the water in the tank.
5. Drop a Cocktail shrimp or 2 in the water , this will get your cycle going for you ,
first your going to see your ammonia spike pretty high , this is great it should take about 3-5 days for it to spike , after about a week or less with ammonia your ammonia will turn to Nitrites , then slowly your nitrites will go down and turn to nitrates when your Ammonia hits 0 and your nitrites hit 0 your nitrates should be at about 40 wait a week for them to slowly go down ........ THEN do a 25% water change with premixed water. wait a couple of days and add your first fish , your first fish should be a hardy fish , BUT i would not go with a damsel , A False Perc Clown will do good they are pretty hardy. see how he does for about 2 weeks and go from there
That is the proper way to cycle and i hope it helps

Depending on how big your tang was i would say it probably shouldnt have been in there because either way he was going to outgrow the tank ..... people say tangs need a 90 gallon set up ..... I dont find this true JMO though .... i have my yellow tang in my 55 with a maroon clown and they are both very healthy and doing awesome. He has Adequate swimming room and lots of rock work to feed off of.
The thing with this hobby is Patience , without it your doomed there is no way around it.
Not your fault you were misinformed by your LFS but in all fairness Impulse buying in MArine Aquariums is a disaster ..... alot of research needs to be done by the potential owner because you have to be able to satisfy a fishes needs that it has in the wild like with your tang it needed to have algea sheets to nibble on during the day , thats something your LFS probably didnt tell you . Also with tangs they arent very hardy you were misinformed there also . They need an well established aquarium with optimal salinity of 1.024-5 , they do not like anything lower than that , they will adapt but it will hrt them in the long run .........
A Last key Point is . Dont let this frusterate you , and scare you away from such a great hobby ..... you can have success with saltwater , everybody has made a mistake and everybody has learned from it . get yourself a good saltwater book and study up , the best one i know of is "The Conscientous Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner
Anyway
I hope this helps you out
and good luck in the future
also sorry about your loss
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by Solecraft
One last thing -- I was cleaning the tank last night, and he was totally flipping out...could that have contributed as well? Im guessing that might be a possibility.
How were you cleaning the tank? Any sponge or anything? Did you wash your hands with soap before putting them in? Any other cleaners or something?
 
S

sinner's girl

Guest

BAD lfs!
Sorry for your loss, in the future, research before starting something and before buying an animal. Tangs need a min of 75gl-6ft of swimming room. Go you a bookstore or library, and pick up a few books, spend some time here and read, read, read.
You have to add fish slowlly, esp to a new tank, so even if your tank was cycled, adding that many fish that fast would have caused it to cycle again.
your nitrates should be at about 40 wait a week for them to slowly go down ........ THEN do a 25% water change with premixed water.
Nitrates will go down on thier own? I've never heard this, I've always though you have to do a water change.... also, before adding fish, after your water change wait a few days, then test the water again, you want your nitrates under 20, closer to 0.
Also, wait longer than 2 weeks before adding your next fish. You can add a pair of clowns as your first fish, but wait 4-6weeks before adding another fish. Add fish one at a time, unless the fish are a pair. If you want a small school, then wait till your tank is established.
Thats weird, again...the "professionals" at the aquarium store kept telling me how hardy the tangs were. 6 fish, 4 of which are smaller than 1", in a tank that big, is a lot of fish? Additionally, the tang was quite small.
Yes, that's a lot of fish for your tank. They will grow bigger! A crib is fine for a baby, but you wouldn't plan on keeping a that baby in the crib forever.
 

ophiura

Active Member
In some tanks, nitrate can be reduced because of an established deep sand bed, a lot of LR, a refugium, etc...export mechanisms. But in many tanks, the only export mechanism will be water changes. So I wouldn't wait for the nitrate levels to decline on their own, personally

Let me ask, what is the warranty on the fish at your LFS? I find that the stores that have no warranty, tell you everything will be "fine" in your tank...and those that actually do have a good warranty tend to be a bit more conservative.
I have 2 fish in my 45g tank, and may add something else small...but maybe not. I had a coral beauty angel in their for awhile and considered it a huge mistake and I removed her. Just seemed WAAAY too crowded. I have a small Kole tang (which is not as active a swimmer, and yes, I have several multi thousand gallon systems to put it in when its larger) and a sixline wrasse.
I do not, BTW, think you are on the verge of losing everything. But some caution and patience is warranted, and removing some fish is not a bad idea. Additionally, I would buy some good test kits to have at home.
Also, are you adding any other additives to the tank? You mentioned a buffer to lower pH, what kind of buffer was this?
 
S

sinner's girl

Guest
and yes, I have several multi thousand gallon systems to put it in when its larger)
I bet we all wish we could say that. Sereral even, not just one.
and thanks for the info on the nitrates.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Solecraft
So what should my next course of action be?
I would say your next course of action would be to just wait, and if you don't plan on keeping the damsels try to get them out asap. What is done is done, in my opinion. If you cycled too fast you are probably past the worst of it now. I would keep testing your water on a regular basis but I would imagine even if you did not properly cycle that your tank is already cycled by now.
So if you get rid of the damsels you will have just one goatfish and a tomato clown which seems alright to me. After you are sure you tank has stablized and there are no more problems then you can start getting more fish, in my opinion. Just try to stay away from tangs and only add one fish at a time if you can.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by Sinner's Girl
I bet we all wish we could say that. Sereral even, not just one.
and thanks for the info on the nitrates.

I's a lucky one...the LFS alone (where it will probably go) has a 20+ foot saltwater "pond" and a 40,000g display.
 
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