yep yep - Republicans are the rational ones...

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3162263
And of course the avergae american and all liberals will eat it up as well. Never realizing the "evil" insurance companies currently only experience a 2.2% profit margin. They are really raping us with their rates. Jack in the box experiences a higher profit margin at 4.4% than most health insurance companies.But it is the health insurance companies that need to reduce THEIR rates....
Wow! What a stunning example of a logical fallacy! Are you really attempting to connect completely unrelated things by leaving out critical facts not readily apparent or even relevant to any combination of the statistics, let alone facts?
That would be a Net profit of 2.2%. Your statement completely ignores the 18-25% of Gross (I.e. pre-tax, and therefore - ummmm - deductable) income spent on advertising, bureaucratic overhead, accounting inefficiencies (due to overly complex and variable pricing structures for the same procedure), campaign contributions, etc. I.e. the roughly 25-28% of gross that Insurance Companies spend on something other than health care.
That's like saying: "Start your own internet business. You could soon be grossing $300k a year." Ooooo - sign me up.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3162681
Wow! What a stunning example of a logical fallacy! Are you really attempting to connect completely unrelated things by leaving out critical facts not readily apparent or even relevant to any combination of the statistics, let alone facts?
That would be a Net profit of 2.2%. Your statement completely ignores the 18-25% of Gross (I.e. pre-tax, and therefore - ummmm - deductable) income spent on advertising, bureaucratic overhead, accounting inefficiencies (due to overly complex and variable pricing structures for the same procedure), campaign contributions, etc. I.e. the roughly 25-28% of gross that Insurance Companies spend on something other than health care.
That's like saying: "Start your own internet business. You could soon be grossing $300k a year." Ooooo - sign me up.
And you think the government can do it better?

If you so despise the capitalist system why do you live here?

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3162681
Wow! What a stunning example of a logical fallacy! Are you really attempting to connect completely unrelated things by leaving out critical facts not readily apparent or even relevant to any combination of the statistics, let alone facts?
That would be a Net profit of 2.2%. Your statement completely ignores the 18-25% of Gross (I.e. pre-tax, and therefore - ummmm - deductable) income spent on advertising, bureaucratic overhead, accounting inefficiencies (due to overly complex and variable pricing structures for the same procedure), campaign contributions, etc. I.e. the roughly 25-28% of gross that Insurance Companies spend on something other than health care.
That's like saying: "Start your own internet business. You could soon be grossing $300k a year." Ooooo - sign me up.
No, Not a logical fallacy. If you are going to call me a liar atleast back your claim up with a link or two. You are claiming insurance companies have a roughly 18-20% profit margin gross value. Yet if you look at 2007 numbers there are only 2 industries that even come close to the 20% range of gross profits. Networking/communication and Mining/oil.
Health/Life insurance is actually at 10% for Gross Profits. However if you dig into it further...a good majority/most of the profits for the industry come from the Life Insurance policy side.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...tries/profits/

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3162806
Health/Life insurance is actually at 10% for Gross Profits. However if you dig into it further...a good majority/most of the profits for the industry come from the Life Insurance policy side.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...tries/profits/
Perhaps they need to get out of that losing low profit business of health care then --

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3162806
No, Not a logical fallacy. If you are going to call me a liar atleast back your claim up with a link or two. You are claiming insurance companies have a roughly 18-20% profit margin gross value. Yet if you look at 2007 numbers there are only 2 industries that even come close to the 20% range of gross profits. Networking/communication and Mining/oil.
Health/Life insurance is actually at 10% for Gross Profits. However if you dig into it further...a good majority/most of the profits for the industry come from the Life Insurance policy side.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...tries/profits/
A logical fallacy is not necessarily an untruth. It is an argument which makes sense on its face, but not when it's dug into. For example, I could say: "Most accidents occur within five miles of home." This is a true statement, but neglects to mention that so does most driving.
So I'm not, in fact, calling you a liar. I'm saying that because the facts as you stated them are incomplete, they lead to a conclusion that is incorrect.
Perhaps I'm using incorrect terminology - I'm not an accountant. What I'm trying to say is that Insurance Companies spend about 18-25% of their income on non-healthcare related things such as I mentioned above. (Which, though I could be mistaken, is my understanding of the difference between Gross and Net Profit.)
I have posted several links documenting this in the past. I'll have to dig them up, as I don't have them saved.

 

[reefraff]

Do you honestly think the government can run it any more efficiently? Amtrack: FAIL Postal service: FAIL Medicare: FAILING Why anyone would want to turn the health care system over to the feds with their track record is beyond me,
We need less government, not more. Then perhaps they can concentrate of doing those things within the proper scope of their power and authority right.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3163364
A logical fallacy is not necessarily an untruth. It is an argument which makes sense on its face, but not when it's dug into. For example, I could say: "Most accidents occur within five miles of home." This is a true statement, but neglects to mention that so does most driving.
So I'm not, in fact, calling you a liar. I'm saying that because the facts as you stated them are incomplete, they lead to a conclusion that is incorrect.
Perhaps I'm using incorrect terminology - I'm not an accountant. What I'm trying to say is that Insurance Companies spend about 18-25% of their income on non-healthcare related things such as I mentioned above. (Which, though I could be mistaken, is my understanding of the difference between Gross and Net Profit.)
I have posted several links documenting this in the past. I'll have to dig them up, as I don't have them saved.
They only make 10% gross profits...Net turns out to about 2-3%. This is an average of all the numbers across the board for the top 10-15 ( I don't remember that figure off the top of my head) Health insurance companies in the nation. I would be willing to bet, your figures are looking at 1 specific company...which will make it appear as if all Insurance companies operate the like that.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3163389
Do you honestly think the government can run it any more efficiently?
No, I don't. We've had this debate before. I do not prefer a government option. I never have, nor will I.
My preference is for the Bismarck system, which I've detailed ad. nauseum in previous threads.
http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_res...sic_models.php

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3163471
They only make 10% gross profits...Net turns out to about 2-3%. This is an average of all the numbers across the board for the top 10-15 ( I don't remember that figure off the top of my head) Health insurance companies in the nation. I would be willing to bet, your figures are looking at 1 specific company...which will make it appear as if all Insurance companies operate the like that.
Not finding the original sites I referenced, but here's some food for thought:
http://lansing.injuryboard.com/misce...oogleid=268656
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcr...ryId=112172939
Statistics, as always, are variable depending on what, specifically, is included in the sample. That's the basis of why they're misleading to begin with - what's left out can be as important as, if not more important than, what's included.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3162681
Wow! What a stunning example of a logical fallacy! Are you really attempting to connect completely unrelated things by leaving out critical facts not readily apparent or even relevant to any combination of the statistics, let alone facts?
That would be a Net profit of 2.2%. Your statement completely ignores the 18-25% of Gross (I.e. pre-tax, and therefore - ummmm - deductable) income spent on advertising, bureaucratic overhead, accounting inefficiencies (due to overly complex and variable pricing structures for the same procedure), campaign contributions, etc. I.e. the roughly 25-28% of gross that Insurance Companies spend on something other than health care.
That's like saying: "Start your own internet business. You could soon be grossing $300k a year." Ooooo - sign me up.
You really should start thinking of another response besides "nuhh uhhh." Because that is basically what this response it. Because all you did, was list off expenses and say that they don't count as expenses...

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3163706
You really should start thinking of another response besides "nuhh uhhh." Because that is basically what this response it. Because all you did, was list off expenses and say that they don't count as expenses...
I'm not calling Darth's facts into question. What I said was they're not telling the whole story. Expenses are pre-tax INCOME. I did not say they don't count as expenses, I said the money is spent on something other than health care. I could care less if an auto manufacturer, a bank, a food chain or your LFS spends 100% of their income on something other than what they claim to do.
In health care, however, that is unacceptable to me.
I am also not here to argue the legalities and semantics of tax code.
Here's the rub:
The US spends ~17.6% of GDP on health care, where Europe and Japan spend between 8 and 10%. In most cases, our results are not only not better, but they're worse.
Why? What are we getting for double the money? Where's that money going?
P.S. You should consider not starting sentences with conjunctions if you're going to suggest that others (e.g. Journalism students) need English lessons.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3163739
I'm not calling Darth's facts into question. What I said was they're not telling the whole story. Expenses are pre-tax INCOME. I did not say they don't count as expenses, I said the money is spent on something other than health care. I could care less if an auto manufacturer, a bank, a food chain or your LFS spends 100% of their income on something other than what they claim to do.
In health care, however, that is unacceptable to me.
I am also not here to argue the legalities and semantics of tax code.
Here's the rub:
The US spends ~17.6% of GDP on health care, where Europe and Japan spend between 8 and 10%. In most cases, our results are not only not better, but they're worse.
Why? What are we getting for double the money? Where's that money going?
P.S. You should consider not starting sentences with conjunctions if you're going to suggest that others (e.g. Journalism students) need English lessons.
What country invents the vast majority of medical devices, Drugs and procedures? As DT pointed out in a post long long ago in a thread far away our spending includes all the research and testing. What rubs me is the companies turn around and sell the stuff in other countries for way less. I think we need a major export tariff or something.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3163739
P.S. You should consider not starting sentences with conjunctions if you're going to suggest that others (e.g. Journalism students) need English lessons.
I didn't take a ton of English in college. Plus I'm not implying that they can't write. I'm implying that nuking Journalism, new students would need some writing training...
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3163912
What country invents the vast majority of medical devices, Drugs and procedures? As DT pointed out in a post long long ago in a thread far away our spending includes all the research and testing. What rubs me is the companies turn around and sell the stuff in other countries for way less. I think we need a major export tariff or something.
The flip side to that argument, is, what are drug companies going to do, say to the dude who makes 100 dollars a year, sorry, you don't make enough to buy my drug to cure your disease. There is a human element to that.
Meanwhile if they charged the lower prices in the USA, they wouldn't be able to fund the research that brought the drug to market anyway...

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3163963
I didn't take a ton of English in college. Plus I'm not implying that they can't write. I'm implying that nuking Journalism, new students would need some writing training...
The flip side to that argument, is, what are drug companies going to do, say to the dude who makes 100 dollars a year, sorry, you don't make enough to buy my drug to cure your disease. There is a human element to that.
Meanwhile if they charged the lower prices in the USA, they wouldn't be able to fund the research that brought the drug to market anyway...
Turn in your Conservative card

So one one level the companies are evil for making a profit but on the other that profit allows them to basically give the products away in 3rd world countries. I am more concerned about the price they sell the drugs for in other developed countries.

 

[zman1]

Always keep in mind - Treating a disease or illness is for more lucrative to the health care drug industry than preventing or finding a true cure. You would lose your occurring revenue stream…

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3164115
Always keep in mind - Treating a disease or illness is for more lucrative to the health care drug industry than preventing or finding a true cure. You would lose your occurring revenue stream…
True from a market wide standpoint, however how much would a company that could cure the common cold make on the drug? If it could be done it would because that single company would make far more by having a lock on the market than they ever could from their small share of the cold remedies.

 

[zman1]

How much would a company that could cure cancer lose that currently sells treament....

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3164293
How much would a company that could cure cancer lose that currently sells treament....
Again, if held the patent on a drug that could cure cancer you would make a bundle, far more than being one of how many companies having drugs to help treat the disease? A cure for cancer wont make it go away so they would have a reoccurring income from the product.
Contrary to what the Ossiah says there are very few docs that make decisions based on what will pay them the most.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3164308
Again, if held the patent on a drug that could cure cancer you would make a bundle, far more than being one of how many companies having drugs to help treat the disease? A cure for cancer wont make it go away so they would have a reoccurring income from the product.
Contrary to what the Ossiah says there are very few docs that make decisions based on what will pay them the most.
They couldn't make a bundle with a cure. The health care plans we all have only cover generic drug cost well. Drugs that have no generic equivalent practically pay nothing - co-pay is 90%. You must have been out of the true private sector for health care for some time now.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3164293
How much would a company that could cure cancer lose that currently sells treament....

Oh you mean like Polio? I am not sure...how much do the companies make off the polio vaccine? Oh wait...how about small pox? Or dyptheria?.......